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Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by ml1969 on 2012-11-10 11:38:09

Hello,

my name is michael and I come from germany. So please excuse my bad english .

Perhaps you know about the situation using/bying wireless mics in germany where LTE

is coming and I have to  change my wireless mics.

At least I need 12 systems which I can use at the same time.

Ok I can by some anlog stuff an pay the license, which should be no problem.

BUT

In search of a suitable system, I found line6.

I am fascinated by the possibilities that I read about the system.

I used the forum search and I found some interesting things about

this question, but no definite answer. So a few things bring me anything but headache.

A few things that I had in mind:

Line6 XD V75

8

Line6 XD75HS

4

Line6 P180

2 (4p.)

Line6 TX75

4

Line6 LM4T

4

Line6 xd-AD8

2

All 12 units installed in a rack, with the antennas mounted in 3 meters hight.

The location is a conference hall with a depth of 25 meters, a width of 20 meters and a height of 8 meters.

The receivers stands in a corner, next to the "stage" from about 4 to 12 meters.

However, throughout the hall should Micros can be used.

At the back of the hall is a gallery for spectators.

Tthe hall holds 500 people which normally sit on chairs (370 at the bottom and 130 in the gallery below).

In the hall i can found 3 public WiFi networks / acces-points which work in the same 2,4 GHz 

Will this work well?

With the analog wireless there were no problems. Perhaps th better solution?

Michael



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by RonMarton on 2012-11-10 13:48:41

Herzliche Grüssen von Australien, Michael!

Mein Deutsch ist viel schlechter als was Sie auf Englisch geschreibt haben, ...indeed your English is better than many who speak it all the time. (Just look at some of the other posts here if you don't believe me.)

Speaking of believing, I am not connected with Line 6 at all, (click on my pink avatar for more details) but I DO firmly believe that the system you are proposing (racking, antennae installation/distribution and all the hardware) will not only prevent you needing to change frequencies and licensing in the future, but also seems "custom made" and ideal for your requirements right now.

In my experience, anything that is as solid from other manufacturers will also cost you from three to five times as much, but may not have nearly as many features.

One "tip" I would suggest for "conference" applications concerns antenna placement. Many people forget about the "question and answer" part of such events and only think about the stage when mounting their receiving antennae, so they would have those antennae only facing the stage on relatively short cables.

The way I regularly use my P180 antennae for teleconferences may (at first glance) seem "wrong" in that they actually face the WiFi and Bluetooth from the audience, but it works exceptionally well for picking up TX75 handheld "questions", ...all the way from the backs of halls much larger than yours, as well as giving me drop-out free coverage of the "stars" on stage.

I have the P180's facing down over the stage, fixed (as you say) 2 to 3 meters high, spaced about 5 metres apart, (at the end of standard 50ft/15.24m LMR-195 cables, Line 6 Product Code: 98-033-0016) with their flat receiving sides pointing back towards what you have as the gallery at the rear of the hall, from behind the main "performers", mounted against the back wall of the stage.

Being so small, it is often no problem having them visible, but in most installations a cyclorama or back-cloth will cover them and (being fabric) will have no effect on their RF pick-up.

Speaking of which, ...brings us to your well-based worry about other 2.4GHz traffic.

First of all, the set-up I'm suggesting has the on-stage transmitters far closer to the receiving antennae than any possible interference from the body of the hall, so the inverse square law reduces such interference to very much less than the signal received from those on stage.

Second, even when a TX75 handheld is transmitting from "behind" WiFi and/or Bluetooth interference at the very back of the hall, the XD-V receiver will NOT recognize anything other than its own transmitter, so "break through" or "frying" never happens.

In practice the very worst effect of such combinations seems to be the "slowing down" or disconnection of the other offending 2.4GHz devices when the Line 6 transmitter approaches them ...and even this can be "worked around" (if necessary) using the excellent diagnostics built into the receivers.

Even when using RF2, I have never experienced a "drop out" of signal from my transmitters in these sorts of situations, but it is very comforting to know that (unlike analog systems) should one occur, there is no "splat" or "fizz", ...it just sounds like a momentary "fade down and fade up" that will often not be noticed.

For absolutely "bulletproof" reception of your wireless mics, you can also instantly switch to the amazingly robust, four frequency diversity RF1 scheme. This is done from the transmitters and requires no changing at the receivers.

The limitations of RF1 are

  1. That it may cause more slowing or disconnection for other 2.4GHz users and
  2. It is limited to no more than the twelve channels you had in mind and
  3. You cannot use RF1 and RF2 together.

A fuller discussion of the two schemes is available here: http://line6.com/support/message/374285#374285

I am sure that you will have many years of successful operation from your system.



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by RonMarton on 2012-11-10 14:10:35

Sorry Michael...

I forgot to say that you only need one set of P180 antennae, as you can use two of the included short RF cables to connect from the last output of your first XD-AD8 antenna distribution unit to the inputs of the second.

In theory, there is no limit to the number of these units that you can connect "in series" like this...

In practice, ...you'll soon run out of money!



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by ml1969 on 2012-11-11 02:37:01

Hello RonMarton

thank you for your detailed information.

For last reply I have an additional question.

It should be possible that I only use ONE XD-AD-8 with daisy-chaining some receivers.


I think in this way:

Output XD-AD 8 ( A and B )

1receiver 1daisy-cahinedreceiver 2
2receiver 3daisy-cahinedreceiver 4
3receiver 5daisy-cahinedreceiver 6
4receiver 7daisy-cahinedreceiver 8
5receiver 9daisy-cahinedreceiver 10
6receiver 11daisy-cahinedreceiver 12
7receiver 13

8receiver 14

The color of the paddles is no problem, perhaps I pull a white fabric over it.

With the P180 paddles I can cover the whole stage AND the rest of the hall.

The max distance is abaut 35 metres.

A few more words abot the situation with the others wi-fis in the hall.

I installed a wifi analizer on my smartphone, walk around the hall through

all 4 corner, the stage and the middle of it and took some screenshoots.

I think there is alot of radio in the air, but look for yourself.

shot_Nov_11_2012_35.png

shot_Nov_11_2012_48.png

shot_Nov_11_2012_52.png

shot_Nov_11_2012_54.png

shot_Nov_11_2012_59.png

shot_Nov_11_2012_61.png

shot_Nov_11_2012_71.png

shot_Nov_11_2012_73.png

Is there enough space for using 12 XD-V75 at the same time without having troubles?

Michael



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by RonMarton on 2012-11-11 16:21:20

First, to the "daisy-chain", Michael...

It was only the older XD-V70 receivers that were specified as being OK with up to six running "looped through" from a single pair of antennae, the V75's specification only allows up to a maximum of four.

Interestingly, I have found that (in some situations) I can, in fact, get acceptable results with all eight of my V70s running from just one pair of P180's, ...but only when using RF1.

With RF2, I can definitely only "stretch" it to an absolute maximum of five, but I would not ever advise relying on such arrangements!

In any case, I really believe that it would be utter MADNESS to "save" on the extra XD-AD8, given that

  1. You are operating in a location that already has a lot of 2.4GHz traffic and
  2. The resulting installation would probably demand a big "re-think" to add extra receivers, whereas having "spare" RF outputs would even allow you to add them on a momentary "event by event" basis. (This could prove really handy with "hired in" or "borrowed" equipment, should a larger event arrive with the usual short notice!)

Now, to the 2.4GHz spectrum.

I have no elegant screen shots from ABC TV's Rohde & Schwarz analyzer that can match yours. (Very impressive. If only all installers were as careful as you!)

What I can tell you is that I stand by my earlier RF1 and RF2 comments that arise from actual teleconference experiences when using my XD-V systems, ...even when (on one occasion) the Rohde & Schwarz spectrum analyzer revealed that I was working in a location (Sydney Harbourside, adjacent to the Opera House) with an amazingly crowded 2.4GHz band.

Three navies (UK, US and AUS) were alongside, as well as the usual harbour traffic and the entire CBD !

The "pack" of journalists there were upset that they had problems with their cell phones, Bluetooth and so on, ...but my Line 6 XD-V systems never "missed a beat", albeit using RF1.

(...I must confess that I quite enjoy upsetting a certain class of journalist...)



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by RonMarton on 2012-11-11 16:46:59

Sorry Michael...

But I misread your very clever scheme of just "looping" a single receiver from its "neighbour".


That should indeed work brilliantly and give you the spare capacity I mentioned, although the 3dB loss of RF for each of the paralleled receivers may not allow operation to their maximum range.

It might be best to arrange a walk test, with the receivers just sitting on a table, prior to committing to a final rack design that has only one XD-AD8. 

Fabulous lateral thinking ...and in the words of Professor Ocham's famous "razor", "the simplest solution is often the best".

I tip my hat to you !



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by dboomer on 2012-11-11 20:35:20

Hi Michael

This system you describe should be reasonably easy to manage.  Yes, you could use a single AD8 and connect the receivers as in your chart and then use a single pair of paddles.

With respect to the wi-fi present in your location.  You won't need to pay much attention to the wraps operating on channel 13 as it is mostly above the frequencies used by XDV.  So effectively you are only dealing with 2 wi-fi channels.  It is going to matter the relationship and distances between the waps and the wireless mics.  But there tools available in the receivers to  measure the effectiveness of the antenna placement that will help you a lot.

Without seeing the specifics I would also recommend antenna placement in a similar fashion to the method laid out by Ron.  I would be happy to take a look at your specific venue if you could send me a drawing that shows the position of the waps and the area in which you intend to use the wireless transmitters.  I could probably make a more specific recommendation.  Send it to my Line 6 mailbox ... dboomer @ line6.com



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by RonMarton on 2012-11-11 20:50:12

From the IDs displayed in Michael's screenshots, Don...

...I'm guessing that the WAN's currently displayed are outside the auditorium building in question.

The main point I want to make, however, is that the extent of support offered by Line 6, especially to the extent of that which you're volunteering above, is (in my experience) yet to be matched in the rest of the audio industry.

A hearty "Well done!" to all involved.



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by ml1969 on 2012-11-12 00:25:39

Hello RonMarton,

Hello dboomer,

thank you for your tireless help.

Today I try to get a ground plan of our conference hall.

Yesterday I spoke with an employee of the Department of Network and

what I can say in this moment is:

One access point is mounted directly above the stage IN the conference hall, I will say 8 metres from the floor.

and as I know it feeds the IDs lhsgast, casino and MobilCity-Hotspot  cause it is the same licensee.

The other ID called noresponse we do not have to think about. It was ran unauthorized at an event by an "exhibitor".

So if it happend once again it is the problem of him.

If it will help that this setup will work with 100% I can reduce the receivers to 10 piece runnuíng at the same time.

But planing the hardware with 12, 2 for backup.

Michael



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by dboomer on 2012-11-12 09:26:57

I'm with you here too Ron.  Channel 1 activity is fairly weak and probably won't be much of a consideration and channel 13 is mostly out of range frequency- wise.  So you are really only dealing with a single wi-fi channel.  That shouldn't be much of an obstacle.

Michael... If the access point is directly overhead that's basically a good thing.  Our paddle antennas basically pick up in a doughnut shape and are relatively dead from the top and the bottom.



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by RonMarton on 2012-11-12 13:26:02

Not only can P180 paddles be "aimed" to point slightly downwards and hence "away" from the WAN radiation point, Don...

But also, (as you so rightly say) I had forgotten that there's nothing to stop you, Michael, from employing an omnidirectional P360 paddle as one "half" of your diversity pair, with a P180 as the other.

In my opinion, doing this would only yield a better result if you can mount the P360 so that its "straight up and down doughnut hole" attenuation is directly underneath the offending access point as Don suggests.

I would then still mount its P180 "mate" so as to cover the whole auditorium from the back wall of the stage, (pretty much as previously discussed) but more angled across the body of the chamber (from closer to one its side walls) than I would have it in the event of running a pair of identical P180s.

Bear in mind that (unlike the P360) the P180's pickup pattern is pretty much a hemisphere with its "flat base sitting on" the antenna's plate, the "curved" side needing to point towards the desired "target" transmitters, hence the "this side faces transmitter" legend engraved on just one side of its paddle.  

Whatever antennae you settle on, as your plan is to to run only 10 channels on a regular basis, (with an extra two easily available, yet having the system ready for possible expansion up to the maximum of 14) I would suggest that the RF1 scheme of frequencies should be your "default" or "normal" way of operating.

This will give you 12 channels with the type of "bulletproof" and rock-solid reception that I've already described.

The only slight "negative" effect I have had when running RF1 in my "conference" jobs has been the occasional (quite rare) slowing down or "swamping" of an individual tablet or PDA/smartphone when one of my transmitters has been within about one metre of it ...and that only while the device in question was actually attempting to stream via a WAN.

That "slowing and/or glitching" was mostly just a "talking point" and generally only noticed by the "desk-buddy" of the participant who actually caused the "problem", due to the holding of the offending handheld nearby in order to participate in the event !

I would not be a bit surprised to find that your trouble-free, crystal-clear system rapidly becomes a talking point in its own right.



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by ml1969 on 2012-11-13 00:28:10

Hello RonMarton,

Hello dboomer,

RonMarton schrieb:

I would not be a bit surprised to find that your trouble-free, crystal-clear system rapidly becomes a talking point in its own right.

if that happens I will be very happy, at this moment I am not yet decided. If I spend a lot of money and it does not end, I dont want think about it :-)

If I have both of you understood correctly, the only thing could happend is (using RF1), that the 10 or 12 XD-V75 impair the wi-fi.

And wi-fi WILL NOT impair the XD-V75s?

Can I say it in this way?

Ron you talked about using one P360 and one P180? Is there a antenna combiner? Would this make sense using 3 or 4 antennas?

Michael



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by dboomer on 2012-11-13 09:43:42

Generally this is a true statement but there are exceptions depending on your setup geometry and local interference.  For example, if you were to set a wi-fi transmitter very close to the V75 's antennas and try to use the transmitter at a distance you may have a problem.  But wi-fi transmitters are small and easily moved ( as are V75 antennas) and you will likely have to move one or the other a bit.  But this is easily done compared to if your interference was a TV transmitter, ini which case you's have to move miles apart instead of meters apart.

Take a look at this.

http://l6c.scdn.line6.net/data/l/0a06434d167c14dcad17fe61b0/application/pdf/Line%206%20Guide%20to%20Near/Far%20%28Rev%20C%29%20-%20English.pdf

As">http://l6c.scdn.line6.net/data/l/0a06434d167c14dcad17fe61b0/application/pdf/Line%206%20Guide%20to%20Near/Far%20%28Rev%20C%29%20-%20English.pdf">http://l6c.scdn.line6.net/data/l/0a06434d167c14dcad17fe61b0/application/pdf/Line%206%20Guide%20to%20Near/Far%20%28Rev%20C%29%20-%20English.pdf

Asfar as multiple antennas ... you may also benefit from having a dedicated set of antennas serving your "stage" area systems and another optimized for your roving transmitters.  This would give you an extra level of protection and would be high on my list.

As far as RF1 interfering with wi-fi ... what happens is the wi-fi throughput begins to slow down.  However you have one wap set to channel 13 which is above the frequencies used by V75.  That channel will only minimally be affected. You could also conside switching one of the waps to 802.11N and run at 5G.  That fixes the potential problem and doubles the throughput speed of the wi-fi.



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by ml1969 on 2012-11-13 11:34:12

HI dboomer,

thanks for your help.

Did you get my email with the pics?

I alredy read the near/far guide, also the other documents which are available.

I understand the problem and the solution with external antennas, moving them around is logical.

There are two things I have to explain:

The accesspoint is fixed installed, I cannot move them

AND

the wifi in our house is managed by a third party (licencee) as I described, so

I am  not able to adjust or change any settings.

Normaly we have two situations in our hall. /as you can see on the pics)

1. conference with a wirred digiral conferenc system

In this situation we (normaly) do not need any wirless micro, but the wifi is important

=> normaly no problem

And if we have troube with the conference system, an have to take - as backup- the wireless mics,

the distance between handheld and tablet (laptop) is more than 1 metre

2. Audience with speaker desk, moderator (question - answer situation)

we have up to 7 seven speakers sitting on the stage, distance f handheld around 1 meter

we have on moderator walking around max distance 35 meters

we have 2 or three mic for questions in the middle of the hall (normaly fixed on stands - sometimes they "walked through the hall)

if some have to use his smartphone tablet or anything else, he is more than 3 meters way from all handhelds, and if the moderator comes to him

  he do not need his smartphone :-)

For me the most important question is:

Does 10 or better 12 handheld works at the same time, also using (with limitations) the wifi

Michael



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by RonMarton on 2012-11-13 16:06:33

Sorry Michael...

Between us I fear we have confused you with too much information, even though it was all good news!

To simplify:

With the relatively small size of your venue, it is MY definite opinion that rigging any more than two paddle antennae (just one for each input "A" and "B" of your XD-AD8) would not only be a waste of money, but also make the system needlessly complicated and much harder to install.

(I say this based on many CBD teleconferences that I have done [and continue to do] with my XD-V rig. These conferences exactly corresponded to the conditions that you have described, the only difference being that they needed to be rigged and then removed from a huge variety of venues.

The venues I am talking about have been both indoors and outdoors ...and include conference and exhibition centres, five star hotels, an underground car park, waterfront marquee tents and aboard a large moving ferry boat !)

Accordingly, there are only two antenna options for my suggested scheme, being

  1. Two P180s ("A" and "B") against the back wall, (the one I originally suggested ...and the one that I would do) ...OR...
  2. One P360, (antenna "A") "rejecting" the WAN access, point (by being immediately below it over the stage) with a P180 (antenna "B") "looking" more diagonally across towards the gallery from the back wall of the stage.

I would advise that you mostly use the RF1 scheme and am confident that, in doing so, you will soon "forget" that your twelve trouble-free and crystal-clear microphones are, in fact, wireless.

Whether you have just one switched on, or all twelve, will make no difference at all. The only WiFi/Bluetooth issue will be the "slowing" or "swamping" of smartphones, PDAs and tablets whenever one of your XD-V microphones comes within (about) one metre of that WAN device, while that device is actually working. I believe that the WAN systems in or near your venue will have virtually no effect on your XD-V microphones.

I would also point you towards this headset microphone that I use (with my TBP12 beltpacks) for both seated and moving conference participants:

http://www.amazon.de/Samson-SE50-Micro-Headset-Tan/dp/B002BO53LO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352849650&sr=8-1

Youmay find these to be a handy alternative to your LM4T lavalier mics, when funds allow. I often use Line 6's unique "Talk Dynamic Filter" to "auto mix" between up to eight people that are all wearing these on stage.

(I own twelve, eight configured for the above regular conference work ...plus four, double wind-socked, configured specially for rugby referees.)

Another handy hint that occurs to me concerns "hiding" your paddle antennae in plain sight. Rather than risking paint or having to tailor fabric for a change of their colour, you may consider applying the type of "stick on" vinyl that is normally used for shelving and so forth.



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by ml1969 on 2012-11-14 01:12:19

hello again,

I will say thank you for your hard work.

I think I will go as Don suggested.

I will rent a XD-V75 and test it, looking on the tools, how many free chanels and so on.

Than I will see in which way we will go....

THe XG-V75 looks very interessig ,,,,,

Michael



Re: Need Help byuing XD-V75 cause some wi-fi at the same location
by RonMarton on 2012-11-14 01:23:39

Great idea, Michael !

I did not realize that XD-75s were available to rent.

A really useful trial will be simply using the hired receiver with just the "rubber ducky" whip antennae attached to its back-panel BNC connectors.

My guess is that you will be very pleasantly surprised at the clarity and range. This should give you much more confidence before committing to the rack-mounted system with paddle antennae.

All the very best.

RON.




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