amsdenj

If you want to get vintage UniVibe sounds, you need to put it in the Pre section - simply because that's what everyone did when the device was commonly used and therefore is what we're use to hearing. This was true with most effects pedals because most guitar amps didn't have effects loops, and most guitar players used power amp clipping to get the desired level of amp distortion. So all effects were before the amplifer, preamp and poweramp. Since we have choices now, this raises the quesiton about what effects go where. Generally things that effect ambience (reverb, delay) and things that effect frequency modulation (chorus and maybe flanger) go after the amplifier so they effect the distorted signal, are generally in stereo, and aren't themselves distorted. These effects are more natural sounding without being distorted. Things that effect gain, tone and phase generally go before distortion. This inicludes compressors, wah, phasors and maybe flanger. The UniVibe mostly effects phase, so it can go in front of the preamp. Flangers are a special case because they can be configured to create a wide range of tonal modulation. This might be better before or after distortion depending on how the flanger is configured. Of course there are no rules, do what produces the sound you're looking for. There are just rough guidelines.

Compare with the acoustic instrument direct into a channel strip in the PA - I found the HD500X was missing some of the high end that really characterizes the instruments, especially with that big mid cut in the Vintage pack acoustic amp. It removes the articulation and ability to cut through the mix, especially on acoustic solos. It sounds too scooped to me.

You can probably get flatter by turning off cabinet simulation - set cabinet to none. Another option is to use the Line 6 Acoustic amp model in the new Vintage pack. its not completely flat, it has a low Q (wide band) 10dB mid cut at 1K Hz. You'll need to use an EQ effect block to remove that. But neither of these solutions will be that good for acoustic guitar since the tone controls appear to be voiced more for electric guitar than for acoustic instruments. Bottom line: the HD500X still isn't that useful for acoustic instruments.

I personally am very disappointed with the Line 6 Acoustic model. It is not at all flat, and the tone controls are not well voiced for any acoustic instrument, including acoustic guitar. Here's some simple analysis of the amp model: All controls at 50% has a wide Q 10dB cut at 1k Hz BASS - boost/cut at 125Hz MID - boost/cut at 800Hz with narrow Q TREBLE boost at 9k Hz, Cut closer to 2k Hz PRES - boost only at 6k Hz, no effect at 0 As you can see: 1. the bass control is too low, focusing on the very area that you want to avoid in an acoustic guitar 2. the 10dB cut at 1K Hz requires a separate EQ block to counteract 3. the MID control Q is too narrow, making an odd resonance for acoustic instruments that isn't very useful, and can't be used to eliminate the 10 dB cut because its the wrong frequency and the Q is much narrower 4. The treble and presence controls overlap too much and the frequencies are not voiced for acoustic guitar. To me this amp isn't any where near as useful as the acoustic models in the POD X3 Live and is pretty unusable for a Variax 700 Acoustic. I'm assuming Line 6 designed it for a very specific purpose, not general purpose acoustic instruments, and my application doesn't fit that purpose. I've given up on the HD500X for acoustic instruments and use it mostly as an audio interface into Logic Pro X (or MainStage) for live use so I can get more appropriate plugins. I'm mostly using S-Gear for electric guitar amp models and the same plugins I use for mixing for acoustic guitar, mandolin and bass. Logic Pro X is actually a pretty nice digital mixer. We use it for the whole band. And you can just press the R key to record what's coming out of the PA. The HD500X does make a pretty good, and flexible audio interface and MIDI controller, so I'm still happy enough with the unit.

The HD500 was designed to have proper gain staging with an instrument in input 1 and input 2 set to Same, regardless of mono or stereo effect blocks, or whether the effect blocks are before the A/B split, in the A or B path, or after the A/B mixer. How this is done is somewhat complicated, but you don't really need to know that. To preserve the gain staging as designed, input 2 should be set to Same unless you are actually using two different instruments, in which case you would generally run instrument 1 into path A and instrument 2 into path B, then mix them at the mixer. Of course there are no rules. If you like the tone from input 1 set to guitar and input 2 set to Variax (so it is essentially off), in most cases you will get a 6dB drop in gain. That may be fine as it will drive the effect blocks and amps at a lower gain and give a different tone that might be just what you're looking for.

I use my HD500X as an audio I/O and MIDI controller device into MainStage with S-Gear. It works very well and is quite reliable, wakes from sleep and reconnects correctly every time. Note you can use the Looper switch as a "shift" switch to get 7 more MIDI CC messages. The MIDI messages are fixed, but you can usually use other techniques to map them to whatever you need to control. The only odd switch is FS4 which is the same with Looper on or off. Probably a bug as FS4 does not work as described in the manual.

I think you could. I have used a Roland AC90 which is a similar amp. You won't be able to play that loud, but it should sound good a relatively low volumes. So think about the environment/context in which you're using the configuration to determine if an amp that small meets your needs. This is a FRFR amp, so it should sound better than Spider. An AS100D would be more flexible.

I do use the TriplePlay as a MIDI input device for a channel strip, and then use any software instrument available in MainStage/Logic. You can also use the TriplePlay plugin in MainStage, but its not really necessary, and you can't send MIDI messages to plugins in MainStage. There are also a lot of 32/64 bit issues with the TriplePlay software - its a bit out of date.

The attached PDF appears to be missing in the first message of this thread.

I meant the X3Live has EQ like the HD500X Global EQ, but separate for every patch.

You can certainly use enough EQ effects blocks to get a good acoustic tone. But: 1. The Drive, Bass, Mid, Treble and Presence controls only work on the Amp block 2. It uses up a lot of effect blocks for EQ that aren't available for other effects 3. None of the EQ effect blocks are voiced that well for acoustic instruments, they're more focused on electric guitar frequency ranges. 4. The effect blocks have limited parameters (5) The X3Live had a number of preamps that were well designed for acoustic instruments, and had global EQ for every patch. Too bad the HD series didn't keep this up. I had hoped the Line 6 Acoustic amp would be one of the X3Live preamps, but as far as I can tell, it isn't.

I'm away from my HD500X at the moment, but I think volume sensitivity provides an automatic speed control. With volume sensitive up, the harder you play the faster the speed. Then as the guitar fades out, the speed automatically slows down. That might be it. I had a Univibe many years ago, and I seem to remember it being pretty subtle. The HD500 model seems more extreme. Maybe its that feedback control.

The 2.6 announcement indicated the POD Farm Acoustic model was included in the vintage pack. Reading the POD Farm 2.5 advanced guide, there is no "POD Farm Acoustic" model. However there are three candidate models: 1. Line 6 Tube Preamp - a general purpose tube preamp (this would be best) 2. Line 6 Piezacoustic 2 - voided for an acoustic guitar with piezo pickups 3. Line 6 Variax Acoustic - voiced for a variax acoustic guitar into the front of a regular guitar amp Does anyone know which one was included in 2.6. My testing would seem to indicate its the Line 6 Piezacoustic 2, but I'm not sure. I was hoping it would be the Tube Preamp.

That documentation is for the Line 6 Variax Acoustic Model in the POD X3 Live. I don't think that's the model that included in the 2.6 update of the POD HD500X. It would be too limiting for a general purpose acoustic model. It also doen't have the extreme high frequency boost described in that model. Rather it only has about a 6-9dB mid cut at 1k Hz. But you could be right, it could be that model. Unfortunately we don't know as there is no documentation for these new models that I know of.

That's the way I was using the HD500X for acoustic tones too, and I run the EQ essentially flat. That works, but the controls on the HD500X aren't functional. I had hoped the Acoustic amp would be mostly flat, and voiced for acoustic instruments so 1) I could free up effect blocks that are currently used for EQ and 2) have functioning knobs for tweaking during performances. The Acoustic amp gets part way there, but is not flat, is too low gain, and does not seem to voiced for acoustic instruments.

Agree that the gain and channel volume for the Acousic amp are very low - forgot to mention that. I'm running the Drive all the way up and the Channel Volume around 75% to get unity gain through the block. This seems very low. Designing an "Acoustic amp" that is tuned for either piezo pickups or a variax acoustic played through guitar speakers would be a very specific purpose amp model and doesn't make much sense. Rather it appears that this amp is either modeling something specific that we are not aware of, was designed as a compromise to limit DSP or memory space, or was designed based on some requirements that escape me. I await documentation from Line6 to indicate what their intent was for this model. To use it, I'm using a mid-focus EQ right before the amp to replace the missing mid frequencies, provide a low pass filter, and boost the gain to more reasonable levels. I had that effect block anyway because there wasn't any acoustic amp. I had hoped to be able to use the block for some other purpose. As it is I have the mid-focus EQ, two sudio EQs and one studio preamp along with the Accoustic amp in order to get good Acoustic tone. I had hoped to simplify this, but the Acoustic amp isn't adequate. Even after all this, the Mid and Treble controls don't really work that well for acoustic guitar, vocal or mandolin - all my requirements. They seem to be voiced towards electric guitar. I can make this work, but it isn't what I was looking for or expected.

Well, after much anticipation, I'm a bit disappointed in the new Acoustic amp. I wanted to use it for a Variax 700 Acoustic and mandolin, as well as for occasional vocal use. Its better than nothing, but I was hoping it would be similar to one of the acoustic preamps in the POD X3Live. Here's what I found: DRIVE: is a very gradual drive control, 0 - 100% doesn't make a huge difference, and to my ear doesn't add any distortion. So it appears to behave like a gain control into the preamp, and has pretty much the same effect as the CH VOL as far as I can hear. BASS: typical medium bandwidth/Q boost/cut around 125 Hz, flat at 50% This is good for acoustic guitar, but is too low to have any much on a mandolin. Also pretty low for vocals. MID: a narrow bandwidth/Q boost/cut at around 800 Hz. The high bandwidth makes it ok for cut, but pretty harsh for boost (its generally advised to use subtractive EQ, and to cut narrow and boost wide). Not only is it not that useful, but there is a wide bandwidth mid cut around 1k Hz with BASS, MID and TREBLE at 50% that this control can't get rid of. You can boost it a little to raise the level at 800 Hz, but because of the narrow Q, it still leaves a dip at 1K Hz. TREBLE: a medium bandwidth/Q boost at 9k Hz and cut closer to 2K Hz - somewhat of an odd treble control. PRES: All boost at around 6K Hz, flat at 0%, so it overlaps with and is a bit lower and therefore more harsh than the TREBLE control. Setting BASS, MID, and TREBLE at 50% and PRES at 0%, you get a pretty deep wide cut at 1k Hz which make a typical smily face. That sounds ok by itself, but tends to make an acoustic guitar or vocal disappear in the mix due to the loss of important midrange. The MID control is too low and too narrow to correct this dip, and the narrow boost at a fixed frequency and Q don't make for a very useful MID control. TREB and PRES overlap at similar frequencies and might have a crossover point that is a bit too low for acoustic instruments. Looks more appropriate for an electric guitar. I could get a reasonably flat sounding setting with BASS 42%, MID 64%, TREB 50% and Presence 5% with the Variax 700 acoustic. I'll stick with the Acoustic amp since its close, and does enable the use of the POD controls during performances to tweak the tone as needed. But I was really hoping for a more flexible acoustic preamp like those in the X3Live that have controls more like those of the global EQ. Not sure what Line6 had in mind for this amp or what amp it might have modeled. It might demo well because of that mid range cut, but it doesn't seem that useful as an acoustic amp to me. My measurements could be off. I used the Fast Fourier Transform in the AudioTools app on an iPad to do the analysis. I fed pink noise into the POD and viewed the output result in the app. My ears aren't as good as the use to be (a long time ago) either. So maybe you'll have a different experience/result.

It looks like the HD500 documents have not yet been updated to include more detailed descriptions of the new amp models. Any idea when the docs will be updated? Or is there a place that describes the new models I missed?

Very much appreciated. Maybe you could include a posting on how you did the measurements?

Here's a blog post I created that contains guidelines and advice I've collected over the last couple of months: Creating POD HD500X Electric Guitar Patches.

I didn't include the mixer control in my list because I consider it as a means of mixing the A and B paths, not as part of the overall gain staging. If you don't have dual paths, then the mixer is best set at 0dB with path A full left and path B full right. There's no reason to use the mixer control for gain staging. If it appears before any effects, then the stage before it should be set so that unity gain into and out of the mixer provides the proper level. If its at the end of the Post-amp path, then it does essentially the same thing as the channel volume, but is less convenient because there's no dedicate knob. Martin, I think you're telling us something important and I want to make sure I understand correctly. Most plugins/effects have a sweet spot where they behave the best. They are often designed to do this at 0dbVU which is essentially the same as -18dBFS, or similar to the -12dBFS Martin is recommending. If you start with that much headroom with no amps or effect blocks - its what you see in the audio interface, and then use more or less unity gain through each block, you'll likely be close to each effect's sweet spot, and won't be introducing any unintentional clipping at the input of any block. I setup plugins in my DAW the same way. Martin, do I have that right? If so, then an approach to gain staging for the HD500 might be: 1. Start with your guitar input, and all effects and amp blocks off. 2. Set your audio interface, or the input gain on the PA to -12dBFS or so to give plenty of headroom and avoid digital clipping 3. Add or turn on the effect blocks on at a time and adjust their output level to maintain the -12dbFS at the audio interface or PA 4. Do the same thing with the Amp block 5. All distortion should be done through distortion effects or the amp block (controlled by the master volume), and not clipping at the inputs of any block or the PA itself 6. Controll overall volume by the output of the PA

There are 7 controls that interact to give distortion and volume. 1. Drive - sets the gain into the amp model preamp and controls preamp distortion 2. Master Volume - sets the volume into the amp model power amp and controls power amp distortion Preamp and power amp distortion sound different, so the relative settings of these controls set the amount and color of the overall amp's distortion. Set these first to get the tone you want. Its generally best to use the smallest amount of distortion needed to fit the song. 3. Channel Volume - controls the relative volume of each patch. This is the control you adjust with your dB meter to balance the volume between patches. All of the above are saved in the patch. Adjust this after you have the distortion and tone you want for the patches. 4. Volume - the POD output volume for all patches. Start with this about 3/4 way up. It provides a convenient control for you to adjust the overall volume of all your patches up or down into the PA. 5. PA Input Gain - set this to ensure proper signal levels into the PA, ensuring there is no clipping into the PA even if you turn the POD volume all the way up. 6. PA channel strip volume - sets the volume of your instrument relative to the rest of the band, usually controlled by the sound man. 7. PA master volume - sets the overall volume of the band to the audience.

You should be able to add a MIDI control to the MainStage layout, then automatically assign it to the epxression pedal by selecting the POD HD500 MIDI device and moving the pedal over its range. But since the Wah in the HD500 is pretty good, why not use that directly? I use an HD500X as an audio interface and MIDI controller into MainStage using S-Gear as the digital amplifier, and a Fishman TriplePlay guitar MIDI controller for other tones. I use a number of front of the amp effects directly in the HD500 (compressor, wah, phasor, tube drive, etc.), then use S-Gear's after the amp effects (mod, delay, reverb). It sounds fantastic and works great. It wasn't an easy setup through. I'm working on a blog entry describing the details. Will have it done soon.

"ascendant melodic minor scale located on the semitone just after the root of a functional dominant seventh chord" Ok, now I've got to go try that. Regarding the "deep doc", why couldn't Line6 contribute that to a sticky in an Advanced Users forum?

The Flip-Top Pre amp is the only amp (that I could find) that has Hi-Fi boost/cut flat-in-the-middle tone controls. However it also has a pretty significant low-pass filter or high cut, even without any speaker cabinet. You could use that amp with any cabinet to study the cabinet parameters in order to at least limit the impact of the amplifier on the study. The 4038 Rbn mic is probably the flattest microphone. But I agree with hurghanico, its the relative differences the cabinet parameters make that is of interest. The particular amp and tone setup should be normalized away by using the same amp combination and only changing just the cabinet parameters. The difference between the two explains the impact of the parameters. And thanks for doing this study. I think it will be very valuable and a great contribution to the community. Not sure why Line6 wouldn't provide this information directly based on the design of the parameters, rather than the overly simplified descriptions in the manual. Of course we should use our ears to assess the impact of these parameters, and keeping the descriptions high level is fine for casual users. But deep parameters are probably not that interesting to casual users.