Sound Differences - DT50 vs PODHD500X

[TBone55]

Hi All, I'm a newbie when it comes to using my PODHD500X with the DT50 212 I recently purchased so please excuse my ignorance on this subject. I noticed that there was a notable sound/tone difference between a preset in my POD using the full amp model when not connected to my DT50 and the amp pre-version of the same model when connected to my DT50 through the L6 link. I checked out some of the existing threads regarding this issue as well as checking out the link to MEAMBOBBO, to see if I could find out what I might be doing wrong but still seem to have the same issue. The sound through the DT50 is not nearly as gritty, or as loud, as it is when I'm using just the POD and listening through the headphones. I'm using the HIWAY 100 amp model full preset with the pod alone and the HIWAY 100 pre model when linked to my DT50. I've got all of the pre-amp settings the same for each version so I was expecting to hear the same amount of 'dirt' and then setting the master vol on the DT50 to around 12:00. I've been working on getting this one particular preset to sound as good through the DT50 as it does through just the pod before moving on to my other presets so I can start to get an understanding of how things work together. If it makes it easier, the tone preset I have is for "Won't Get Fooled Again" by the The Who.

 

Thanks.

[TiagoRamos]

Diz tou turn off the cab simulation? i'm trying to do the same that you do and i'm having the same problem.

 

I cant have the sound that i want. Weird... select pre amp, turn off cab simulation,select combo power amp... and Nothing.

[TBone55]

Hey Tiago, I think we're on our own here. As far as I know, you can either have the cab simulation on or off. You're obviously going to hear a different sound with the cab sim off depending on what cabinet you have. If you're using the cab sim for a 4x12 cab and feeding the signal into an actual 1x12 cabinet you're not going to get the exact same sound as the real 4x12 cab that's being emulated. I haven't experimented enough with this to make a decision whether to have the cab sim off or on yet.

 

As far as the issue with the tone and loudness is concerned, I'm going to try setting my POD HD master to the max when I use just the pre-amp version of the amp model I'm using and see if that helps. I'll report back the results after I do. It's understandable that the folks on this forum are tired of hearing this issue being brought back up when there are existing threads that seem to have exhaustively covered it already. The folks on the forum are great: I only wish that the folks at Line 6 would be more involved in helping out when they see these posts. It could greatly cut down on the number of calls they get and would reach a lot more of the folks that are supporting their products.

[oehman]

I noticed the same with my HD500 & DT-25 when I first got them.

 

I found the tones matched up best when I used Pre amps, left cabs on, and set input 2 to SAME. Where the physical master knob on HD500 is set has less impact on the sound, but it is suggested to leave it up 100%. I like the master on the the DT set at about 3/4 to get the power tubes hot.

[Metalchef]

Ok guys first off if your trying to get the same tone u get on the POD alone then turning OFF the CABS is NOT going to get u there. U said u noticed the difference in the pre and full version of an amp... well that's because there is a difference. The Full version has a modeled power amp section. The Pre version DOES NOT have a modeled power amp section. It is allowing your DT speakers to do their job. Also I myself own a DT50 2x12 and I can assure you that if u are trying to achieve power amp saturation at home your gonna lose an eardrum or spend the night in jail. This is one LOUD amp.if you are using the DT in Low Volume Mode then I use Full Amp Models. If I am out gigging and can turn my amp up I use Pre Versions.

[TBone55]

Thanks MetalChef. You're absolutely correct. The sounds are not going to be exactly the same POD alone vs POD w/DT50 due to real poweramp section and speakers and I don't expect them to be. I think the problem I'm having is that my POD preset using the pre version of the amp doesn't seem to be linking up to my DT50 through the L6 Link. I used one of the DT Editors available and my PreSonus Studio One box to check what was actually in the different topologies on the amp and my HIWAY 100 preset did not show up as I thought it should. I'm using a regular XLR cable that I had as I'm waiting for an AES/EBU cable that I ordered (recommended by line 6 for digital signals) and wonder if that might be the issue. I'm going to use DT Edit to set up my "HIWAY 100" sound and see if that makes a difference but I'll have to wait until there's no one home and wear ear protection to do so. I'll get back to report the results as soon as I do.

 

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All!

[TBone55]

 A HAPPY NEW YEAR to All! Had a chance over the holidays to work on my "sound matching" and I think I've started to get some good results. The tone matches up pretty well weather I'm using the POD alone or with the DT through the L6 link. There are some small differences but I believe that if I spend a bit more time with the system I'll be able to get them to match up fairly well. At least, well enough that my ears can't tell the difference. What I found to be of help were the pre-amp settings that are now come loaded with the firmware update V2.0. These are found under one of the set lists titled "DT- L6 Link". Using the POD HD500 Edit software is the easiest way to access it and to make any changes you might feel are necessary. I strongly recommend that you have listen through the ones you're interested in and then set up the same full amp model using the same settings and compare the two sounds, POD vs POD/DT. Don't try to add any effects or coloring at first, just the basic sound. Also, keep the Master Volume on the POD at MAX when you're hooked up to the DT, but, make sure you remember to turn it down when listening through your headphones, otherwise you'll blow your ears off!!! Your Master Volume on the DT shouldn't have to be any higher than the 9 o'clock position as this is plenty loud enough at home. I haven't even tried to raise the master volume past this point and can only imagine how loud this amp will get. WOW!

[jnbernard]

Does any one know what specific amp model each DT-50 topology uses? I want to be able to set them up as patches so that I have more control with the pod hd500x.

[TBone55]

I believe that the Topologies are:

 

Topo 1: Fender Twin

 

Topo 2: Park 75 (British Crunch)

 

Topo 3: Vox AC30 (English Chime)

 

Topo 4: Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier (Hi Gain)

 

Best to check the DT manual to know for sure.

[mtreehugger]

I just bought my DT50-112 Thursday, to link with the HD500 I've had since 2011.  I'm going after classic rock/vintage tones.  I'm mostly playing straight into the amp, and am stunned with the tones!  I've got a great Marshall rhythm tone on ch1 (voice II class AB pentode gain<3) and a more saturated lead tone on ch2  (voice III class AB triode gain=10).  

 

In my basement, I have it in low power mode, which allows me to turn the master up to 4.  This still isn't enough volume to kick in voice IV, but if I turn up the master the other tones would be too loud.  (Volume disparity between modeled amps is something Line 6 would do well to rethink.)

 

As far as the L6 Link goes, I have to say that we were failed here in terms of an instruction manual.  The L6 LINK Connectivity guide for Pod HD and DT Series is really bad.  It right away starts talking about hooking up 4 DT's.  (So does the HD manual, now that I think about it.)  Now seriously, wouldn't users want to learn how to run one amp first before connecting 4?  It's so confusing because if you skip around you feel like you missed some important point, when in reality I think the manual(s) missed a few important points, in addition to failing to present the instructions in a logical, beneficial order.  As the writer above said, "I think we're on our own."  +1.

 

The guide told me to take my favorite patch in my HD and swap out the full amp for a preamp, then turn on my DT and the L6 link will work its magic.  When I played, I was disappointed in the over-compressed sound.  To my great surprise, when I tried the patch as I originally saved it with the full amp, I could barely tell the difference between what I was hearing through my stereo before and what I was now hearing through the DT!  Maybe a bit more bass and mid and responsiveness, but otherwise very much the exact same tone.  Actually, the DT sounded more like my HD through my stereo than the PA I've used.  Whooda thunk it?  For years I'd been led to believe that I'd have to turn off everything but the pre-amp to run through a DT.

 

So what happened, at least in my case, is that when the DT and HD linked, this caused my POD to change from "studio/direct" mode to "combo pwr amp."  I believe I tried this setting before, going in the front of my Fender (and it sucked), but apparently with the DT and L6 LINK this thing compensates for amp, mic, speakers, etc.  Well, at least for the one patch it seems to, a JCM-800 with a dyna-comp clone and the brit distortion clone.  

 

Line 6 implies that better tones are found using the preamps only, but this suggests otherwise.  I'd say that if you had your HD first, try this before investing a lot of effort in the pre's.  That statement is qualified by only the one patch, though.  

 

I've got some more experimenting to do here, obviously, so I'd best get with it.

 

EDIT:  I wonder if my above findings pertain only to low volume mode.  It sounds like that may be the case.  In low volume mode, amp modeling in the DT occurs because tube distortion/saturation does not.  It could be that they set it up so that while in low power mode via L6 LINK, the amp modeling in the DT is disabled, i.e. effectively replaced by the amp modeling in the HD.

[ColonelForbin]

I noticed the same with my HD500 & DT-25 when I first got them.

 

I found the tones matched up best when I used Pre amps, left cabs on, and set input 2 to SAME. 

 

Yes! And if you use two DT amps or dual amo models you definitely want the input 2 to SAME, because if it's not, it's looking for a second musician.

That one tripped me up; got used to setting input 1 variax, input 2 guitar.. Do that with dual amp models and it splits the two amp models into the two inputs, and since you are only playing on one of the two inputs..

 

In general, if you are using one amp model only, you can make it run louder / hotter by setting input 2 to SAME, or to back off, make it less loud, less 'intense', set input 2 to something other than the input 1.

[mtreehugger]

In general, if you are using one amp model only, you can make it run louder / hotter by setting input 2 to SAME, or to back off, make it less loud, less 'intense', set input 2 to something other than the input 1.

 

This is true that it will be louder, however, to some ears setting input 2 to same causes the dreaded "fizzy" effect.  I changed all my presets to input 2 = variax years ago0 to avoid this, but that was before I got the DT and back when I was running through a FRFR setup.  Could be the DT smooths out the fizzies.

[MartinDorr]

Setting input 2 to 'Same' just sends the input 1 signal on path B and if path A and B are combined at some point within the HD modelling chains you get a 6dB hotter signal thereafter.

Besides that there may be a very good reason to use a hotter input signal there seems to e a phase shifting effect (notch filter) when the path A and B signal paths are combined, especially when there is a fair amount of DSP processing before they get combined (the DSP can do process signals only sequentially), and some claim to hear this effect (I have not noticed it, but there is a lot of eveidence from others that it exists).

From my point of view this 'effect' can be easily avoided and in fact improved upon by simply using only one path (A or B) and raising the signal level in the first effect as high or low as needed or wanted.

Now what is an optimal level? I fiddled around and measured quite a long time and came to the conclusion that all preamps and most effect models start to compress and distort if the peak signal level (inpt or output) significantly exceeds -12dBFS. You may not hear much (although you can measure and see in a DAW or annalyzer) up to -9dBFS, but once you get into -6dBFS range it becomes usually real obvious.

So unless you want that model compression/distortion side effect, stay away from peaks that exceed -12dB (or -9dB if you like to live just over the edge ;-). For example, my JTV69, Spank 4 model gets into the HD500 at -21dBFS peak playing single notes (measured via USB with no effects/amps, input 2 off, mixer center). My first effect is a Mid Focus EQ (by default at neutral tone setting) with a 9dB gain setting (I think you get that with 33%, but I may not remember right). No need to use the Mid  Focus EQ; you can use any effect that has output gain adjustments.

This approach is much better than using ' Same' on input 2 because first of all you don't get th the 'fizz' and second you can raise (or lower) the level to what you need for your guitar and not just some arbitrary 6dB that's not right on (my Lester 1 model tone arrives at -12dB in the HD and does not need any level adjustment to be nice and optimally high).

Unless you have reason to divert, I' d recommend to try run the complete model chain in the HD at signal levels that do not exceed -12dB peak while maintaining a constant RMS level matched to the RMS signal level of your cleanest tone patch. Set the DT's Master at 3 o'clock for a healthy tube effect. Adjust the volume with the HD Master.

Martin