Can the Helix handle these specific chains?

[kylotan]

I'm considering getting a Helix, after skipping the HD500 and Firehawk as they couldn't fully replace my ageing GT-10. I've been waiting for something with snapshots because patch switching time is a big constraint for me, so I think Helix is going to be what I need - but first, I need to be sure it can handle the FX chains I have in mind. They don't seem too demanding in theory, and the examples in the manual suggest I have nothing to worry about, but I know the Helix has some high quality modelling which means some effects might be quite expensive in DSP terms.

 

My main patch would need to support this configuration:

 

Snapshot 1:

noise gate -> tube screamer -> compressor, EQ, or boost -> send/return (for 4 cable method) -> chorus -> delay -> reverb -> volume pedal -> out
Snapshot 2:
clean pre-amp sim (e.g. Jazz Rivet 120 or US Double Nrm) -> compressor -> chorus -> reverb -> volume pedal -> out

 

(I'd probably have a 3rd snapshot which is Snapshot 1 minus the compressor, chorus, delay, and reverb, but it would be a pure subset of Snapshot 1 and therefore not an issue, I'd guess.)

 

Is this feasible, all in one preset? (I'd be happy to share the chorus and reverb blocks if necessary.)

 

How about if I wanted to swap out the Send/Return block for the ANGL Meteor or PV Panama model, meaning I could skip the loop and plug directly into my amp's loop return?

 

And could I have all this, plus the looper block in the same patch? (I don't really have a need for cab sims or IRs, which might help.)

 

Finally, I'd also like to be able to use some more ambient patches, eg.:

Elephant Man Delay -> Hall Reverb -> Vermin Dist -> PV Panama -> EQ -> out
or:

Elephant Man Delay -> Elephant Man Delay -> Vermin Dist (would prefer a Metalzone, but...) -> Spring Reverb -> Vintage Digital delay -> out

 

Ideally with the delays and reverbs all in stereo.  Are these possible?

[DunedinDragon]

It really depends on how you construct the snapshots and what you re-use I imagine.

 

You have to remember in snapshot land it's all just one preset, so everything needs to fit within the DSP limits of a single preset.  Therefore if you're careful with how you allocate blocks you'll likely be fine.  For example, reverb tends to use a LOT of DSP.  However if instead of using different reverb blocks for different snapshots, you simply reuse the same reverb block with some changes to the parameters you're saving a lot of DSP space.  You also left out what you might be doing with cabinets and mics at least on snapshot 2.  This can be another area where you can eat up a significant amount of DSP if you aren't judicious in your use of cabinets.

[NerdOfTheYear]

It really depends on how you construct the snapshots and what you re-use I imagine.

 

You have to remember in snapshot land it's all just one preset, so everything needs to fit within the DSP limits of a single preset.  Therefore if you're careful with how you allocate blocks you'll likely be fine.  For example, reverb tends to use a LOT of DSP.  However if instead of using different reverb blocks for different snapshots, you simply reuse the same reverb block with some changes to the parameters you're saving a lot of DSP space.  You also left out what you might be doing with cabinets and mics at least on snapshot 2.  This can be another area where you can eat up a significant amount of DSP if you aren't judicious in your use of cabinets.

It sounds like he's running out into an Amp. So the cabinet/Mic settings don't impact.

 

To answer you question, yes, I believe this is possible but if you're trying to fit everything in one patch you may just be bumping against it. My understanding is that your total routing (based on the things that you asked for) would look something like this:

 

PATH 1A

(1) Noise gate in input block

(2) Tube Screamer

(3) Clean Amp Sim

(4) Compressor

(5) Gain Block

(6) Send/Return

(7) Delay

SEND TO PATH B

 

PATH B

(8) Chorus

(9) delay

(10) Reverb

(11) Rat

(12) PV Panama

(13) Reverb 2

(14) Volume Pedal

OUTPUT

 

Path 1 probably has a touch more DSP space in it, and Path 2 would be bumping up against the limit.

 

The important take away (or rather, the thing that limits block placement) is that AMP, CAB, IR and REVERB blocks take up the most DSP, so you want to share them across both paths as easily as possible. My band frequently create patches with 2-3 amps, IRs and Reverbs across snapshots, but it involves laying out all our amps on Path 1, and our IR on Path 2.

 

EDIT: When I get home from work, I'll try to build a patch similar to what you're asking and see where the DSP wall hits.

[kylotan]

Yup, I don't strictly have a need for cabs or mics because mostly I'm either using the 4 cable method or going directly into the return of the amp's loop. (Mostly likely both within the same patch, toggling the send block which goes to the physical amp's preamp.) It would be nice to be able to have cabs/mics on there as well, in case I feel like doing some direct recording at home, but I can do without that and use cab sim software instead.

 

For clarity, in a a more traditional channel switching or stompbox type of design, I would have considered a routing a bit like this:

 

Input block -> A/B Split -> Overdrive -> Comp or EQ -> Send/Return to amp -> Chorus -> Delay -> A/B Merge -> Reverb -> Volume pedal -> Out

                        \-> Clean Amp sim        ->        Compressor     -> Chorus          /

 

That has 2 separate choruses, but obviously the merge could be brought earlier to share the chorus, at the expense of having to toggle the delay off separately - but I guess with snapshots, that wouldn't be a problem as I'd just have a snapshot with that block turned off.

 

I don't anticipate wanting more than 2 amps (one clean, one high gain) and 1 reverb (probably hall, cave, or particle) in one preset. I do anticipate perhaps having 2 or 3 delays for the weird stuff however.

 

I'd be very grateful for anyone who could go through and mock up these patches, just so that I can buy with confidence.

[RRMark]

Looks ok to me. I've attached a pic with everything in one long chain, then you can just turn off the relevant blocks for each snapshot. So I included 2amps JC and Panama and send return loop, you can choose from all 3. An IR if required. I stuck in 2 compressors, one pre one post. I did put in 2x Chorus,delay and Reverb, but you could use one with snapshots to change settings.

Wasn't sure about your y-split/merge, you can have everything in series, unless you want the high gain and the clean amp simultaneously, but there is room if needed for parallel fx?!

Anyhow it seems possible to have all your blocks in one preset, then switch them and tweak settings between the various snapshots

[kylotan]

That looks perfect, thank you! The split/merge example is just how I've handled it with other products which had an explicit channel-switching concept, but the snapshot system is more powerful.

 

The only questions that remain are whether a looper can fit in there as well, and whether 3 delays in one patch would be a problem. (The latter seems unlikely as they're pretty low on DSP requirements, right?)

[PeterHamm]

What you have described seems difficult but is a piece of cake for Helix.

[RRMark]

That looks perfect, thank you! The split/merge example is just how I've handled it with other products which had an explicit channel-switching concept, but the snapshot system is more powerful.

 

The only questions that remain are whether a looper can fit in there as well, and whether 3 delays in one patch would be a problem. (The latter seems unlikely as they're pretty low on DSP requirements, right?)

The looped is in there, the last block (not highlighted). If it wouldn't squeeze in you could swap one of the reverbs or choruses for an extra delay. With snapshots you could tweak the settings of one of each effect block then have other additional fx blocks.

[NerdOfTheYear]

I also tested it last night (as per the list I made above) but didn't get a chance to snap pictures. What you asked for is totally doable. Like predicted, path B was pushing at the DSP limit. I didn't hit it, and could have fit more things on, but definitely not an IR or a third reverb.

 

That being said I ran everything in Stereo on the second path, so that also contributed to the DSP bump.

 

Anyway, buy with confidence friend, you'll be able to achieve what you hope for.

[kylotan]

Ah yes, I didn't see the looper earlier as I was viewing the image on my phone. If I needed delay blocks for ambient tones I could probably use a different patch and ditch some of the other blocks so it sounds like I shouldn't have any trouble.

 

Thanks, I suspect that answers all my questions. Now, just to wait for pay day...

[willjrock]

As long as you stay away from the spring verbs ,pitch echo, and multitap 6 on large patches you should be OK
 

[kylotan]

I just wanted to come back to this thread and thank you all for the comments and advice. I had my first rehearsal with my new Helix last night and apart from teething problems trying to get the right levels into my amp's effects loop, everything worked perfectly and sounded great. Rather than having my amp in the loop, I just used the modelled one, and it sounds good enough that I might switch to just using a power amp and save myself carrying so much around at gigs.

[hideout]

As a long time GT-5, 6 and 8 user, the ease of use and substantial bump in audio quality that the Helix brings compared to the GT-x is an absolute joy.  I did not enjoy tweaking the GTs.

[kylotan]

Some of the GT-10 amp sims sound no better than my old Zoom pedal from 2002, complete with swirly digital quantization noise. I'm glad to be saying goodbye to it!