DT25-DT50 Remote template

[Coercer]

The factory presets for the Helix include a patch under Templates called DT25-DT50 Remote. Does anyone know why the signal is routed through two preamps? I am simply curious, as I've been experimenting with the Helix and a DT25. Thanks!

[radatats]

I never even bothered with their template since for some unknown reason they refuse to acknowledge the inherant problems trying to use the Helix with a DT amp using L6 link.  Without action on your part the Helix signal is run on top of the DT internal amp/cab modeling.  You have to turn off the DT internal amp/cvabs using midi or DT Edit.  See the link below to see how I run mine.  It works like a champ and eliminates any confusion.  Helix through DT is fantastic this way.  BTW, I much prefer full amp models over preamps and rarely, if ever, use cab models or IR's to the DT.

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/26901-helix-l6-to-dt50/?do=findComment&comment=208473

[FlyingsCool]

Why do you feel they refuse to acknowledge anything? 

 

DI has spoken at length about the issues surrounding integrating the Helix and the DT series amps.  The template is there to show users how to control the DT using MIDI commands.  It requires connecting a MIDI cable between the amp and the Helix.  It's been specifically said that the Helix routing topology makes actual integration pretty much impossible.  I'm pretty sure the template was not meant to be a be all/end all integration method, just an example of what you can do.

 

Here's a link to a post from 2 years ago from DI.  It pretty much says it all.  There is quite a bit more discussion about it though, starting from before the Helix was released.

 

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/line6-helix.1586637/page-10#post-20130673

[Coercer]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Thanks in part to the information you've provided across the forums, radatats, I have been able to figure out how the DT25's emulation is set up and how to disable the amps. I did notice that the DT25-DT50 Template for the Helix provided by Line 6 seems mostly to just have the DT power amp settings assigned to footswitches. However, I was mostly curious about their strange Preamp configuration in the template. It looks like the signal is sent through one preamp, the output of which is split with one path going into another preamp and meeting up with the other path before output. There doesn't seem to be any panning. Is this kind of setup normal with physical preamps, going from one into another and so forth? The reason I ask is simply because I assume Line 6 had good reasoning when they did that, and if I understand why, I might be able to use that in my own tones.

 

Thanks again!

[radatats]

Why do you feel they refuse to acknowledge anything?

 

Not that they don't acknowledge the issues about integration or even that they are working on possible solutions.  Rather they have never once confirmed or acknowledged or even denied that the Helix signal over L6 link is applied over top of the DT's internal amp and cab modeling unless you specifically turn it off.  Not once has Line 6 ever provided those simple instructions that would have saved a lot of users a ton of  time and efforts.  My observations and workarounds have been proven to work by lots of DT users but still Line 6 hasn't ever adopted them as a simple interim fix.  Yes, the template shows how to send midi commands to control class and topology but without any guidance or instructions about turning off the internal modeling its kind of useless, tone wise.  Additionally any changes you make with midi are permanent, same as using DT Edit.  I haven't seen them mention that either.  I've corresponded with DI directly about integration issues but this subject just gets avoided.  Its like its something they don't want to admit.  Perplexing...

 

As far as the reasons they don't integrate, yes, DI has explained that and I totally understand.  Just weird that they haven't pushed a formal, official guide to making it work in the mean time.  Leaves room for a lot of confusion in the user base.

[radatats]

after studying the template it's really just what it says, remote switching for the DT, not any kind of integration workaround.  It's not designed to work with L6 link.

 

It appears they were trying to give you a 2 channel amp setup using the Deluxe in channel A and the Essex in channel B.  If you use a 1/4 out into the DT FX return and a midi connection you can use the FS's to configure channels A and B accordingly and FS 8 to switch back and forth.

 

The problem is where they placed the split.  It needs to move in front of the Deluxe, not after it.  The split should also be changed from a Split Y to a Split A/B and assigned to FS8.  That way when you select channel B, the signal routes 100% through the Essex to the DT channel B which you would set for Class A, topo III, and if you select channel A 100% of the signal goes through the Deluxe to the DT channel A which you would set to Class AB, topo I.

 

Just remember that whatever changes you make to the DT with this template are permanent until you make new ones, just like using DT Edit.  Should work fine with my suggested changes.  Going straight in to the FX return bypasses all internal modeling in the DT anyways.  However, the DT Master will be maxed out this way so keep that in mind and all volume control is in the Helix.

[FlyingsCool]

Not that they don't acknowledge the issues about integration or even that they are working on possible solutions.  Rather they have never once confirmed or acknowledged or even denied that the Helix signal over L6 link is applied over top of the DT's internal amp and cab modeling unless you specifically turn it off.  Not once has Line 6 ever provided those simple instructions that would have saved a lot of users a ton of  time and efforts.  My observations and workarounds have been proven to work by lots of DT users but still Line 6 hasn't ever adopted them as a simple interim fix.  Yes, the template shows how to send midi commands to control class and topology but without any guidance or instructions about turning off the internal modeling its kind of useless, tone wise.  Additionally any changes you make with midi are permanent, same as using DT Edit.  I haven't seen them mention that either.  I've corresponded with DI directly about integration issues but this subject just gets avoided.  Its like its something they don't want to admit.  Perplexing...

 

As far as the reasons they don't integrate, yes, DI has explained that and I totally understand.  Just weird that they haven't pushed a formal, official guide to making it work in the mean time.  Leaves room for a lot of confusion in the user base.

 

Ok, I get it.  You're not saying they didn't acknowledge up front that there is no true integration between the Helix and the DT Amps, nor will there ever likely be due to the complexities involved and the highly divergent design philosophies (which they have stated multiple times all over the place)....,

 

You just wish they would give more information about the technical details about all the ways in which a Helix could be connected to the DT amps and what goes on.

 

Did you say you've posted what you've discovered about using L6-Link between Helix and DT before?   That's some great info you just gave there above....

 

Seems to me that they are expecting not users to bother using L6 LInk (since DT is expecting HD stuffs that won't be there), that it's easier just to connect to front or 4 or seven cable method to the amp, and then control the amp with MIDI.  But it sounds like you've discovered ways of getting lollipop done through L6 Link?

 

(P.S. Seems to me the info you are looking for can be found in the DT series L6 Link and MIDI Implementation manuals.  Yeah, you'll have to twist it out, but I'm betting at least it can be found.  Which is probably why they have not taken the time to detail it, since they washed their hands of it to begin with.  Not that I don't agree with you that it would be nice to have a Helix specific manual.  Reality says, however, their resources are limited.... )

[FlyingsCool]

after studying the template it's really just what it says, remote switching for the DT, not any kind of integration workaround.  It's not designed to work with L6 link.

 

It appears they were trying to give you a 2 channel amp setup using the Deluxe in channel A and the Essex in channel B.  If you use a 1/4 out into the DT FX return and a midi connection you can use the FS's to configure channels A and B accordingly and FS 8 to switch back and forth.

 

The problem is where they placed the split.  It needs to move in front of the Deluxe, not after it.  The split should also be changed from a Split Y to a Split A/B and assigned to FS8.  That way when you select channel B, the signal routes 100% through the Essex to the DT channel B which you would set for Class A, topo III, and if you select channel A 100% of the signal goes through the Deluxe to the DT channel A which you would set to Class AB, topo I.

 

Just remember that whatever changes you make to the DT with this template are permanent until you make new ones, just like using DT Edit.  Should work fine with my suggested changes.  Going straight in to the FX return bypasses all internal modeling in the DT anyways.  However, the DT Master will be maxed out this way so keep that in mind and all volume control is in the Helix.

 

Now you're giving me GAS to get a DT amp... damn it....

[Coercer]

Thanks for breaking it down Radatats. I missed the footswitch options that switched the preamps, and the split after the first preamp really had me scratching my head.

 

Now you're giving me GAS to get a DT amp... damn it....

 

It could be the right option for you if you understand what the DT25 is going in. I didn't, but luckily it's pretty much exactly what I wanted. To me, it's a great sounding power amp and cabinet combo with optional HD preamp, reverb, and cabinet emulation. For recording, I plan to hook up my Helix, though others could use the internal HD engine or a hardware preamp. But what I find truly impressive are the tube amp controls. Switching between negative feedback topologies, class, and output (Triode/Pentode) flavors have really brought my tones to life. And while the HD or HX engines still have a trace of that digital graininess in the distortion, and that will still be present, the DT25 has been useful for getting closer to a true amp-in-the-room sound when mic'd, something I personally haven't been able to get while "in the box". Additionally, it sounds very great with my acoustic-electric plugged into either the guitar input with emulation turned off or straight into the power-amp in, and the tube options allow me to choose how crisp, clear, or broken-up I want it to sound. It's really incredible.

 

As for the L6 Link stuff, yes it's unfortunate that it can't work as seamlessly with the Helix as it could the POD HD, but I certainly wouldn't count that as a strike against it. Being able to turn the knobs on the DT25 and have it reflect on the POD HD is incredibly convenient and has that immediate "wow-factor" we all love, but adjusting the knobs on the Helix isn't that much less convenient. Secondly, the other big feature that the "Dream Rig" has is the automatic power amp voice-switching capability. It's another thing that's very cool and can amaze your guitarist friends, but practically I cannot see myself needing to switch topologies in the middle of songs (Note: you can still control voicing controls and more with a MIDI footswitch). Instead, I just use the controls on the top of the amp to change the power-amp settings, ​which is still an incredible feature​.  I have a feeling that guitarists who use the DT25 will, like myself, find the settings that work best for them. Need to tighten up your extra-heavy distorted tone? Try Topology IV, Class AB, Triode. Do you want your tone to really breathe so that you can really feel every dynamic of your playing? Try Topology III, Class A, Pentode. Those settings will not​ work for everyone, but the great thing about the DT25 is that it's incredibly easy to find out what will​ work for you. Maybe you're playing through that Rectifier with the wrong tube settings, but isn't the fun of being a guitarist making up new sounds?

 

The way I see it, this amp is an all-around amazing piece of equipment, and while "Dream Rig" forward compatibility was a nice dream, it would have simply been a cherry on top. Just consider the L6 Link as a digital connection that feeds into the DT25 at the same point the input jack does: before the modeler. If you want to go after​ the modeler (and there are benefits and drawbacks to either method), go straight into the power amp input with a 1/4".

 

Do you have a need for a great-sounding tube power amp and cabinet system with configurable tube options with the ability to store 8 HD-quality amps and 2 independent reverbs for the road? If any of that appeals to you, then I highly recommend it. I saw someone selling a used DT25, right here on the forums, for $600. I got mine "open box" from Musician's Friend for $640. I'm sure deals will be easy to find as more Line 6 fans switch to the Helix and sell their DT25s because they believe them to be "incompatible". To FlyingsCool or anyone else who reads this post, let their loss be your gain, because while the two might not be seamless, they are an incredible pair.

[spikey]

I bought one when my Guitar Center was dumping their (new) DT-50's here a while back for $400.00. 

[FlyingsCool]

Thanks for breaking it down Radatats. I missed the footswitch options that switched the preamps, and the split after the first preamp really had me scratching my head.

 

 

It could be the right option for you if you understand what the DT25 is going in. I didn't, but luckily it's pretty much exactly what I wanted. To me, it's a great sounding power amp and cabinet combo with optional HD preamp, reverb, and cabinet emulation. For recording, I plan to hook up my Helix, though others could use the internal HD engine or a hardware preamp. But what I find truly impressive are the tube amp controls. Switching between negative feedback topologies, class, and output (Triode/Pentode) flavors have really brought my tones to life. And while the HD or HX engines still have a trace of that digital graininess in the distortion, and that will still be present, the DT25 has been useful for getting closer to a true amp-in-the-room sound when mic'd, something I personally haven't been able to get while "in the box". Additionally, it sounds very great with my acoustic-electric plugged into either the guitar input with emulation turned off or straight into the power-amp in, and the tube options allow me to choose how crisp, clear, or broken-up I want it to sound. It's really incredible.

 

As for the L6 Link stuff, yes it's unfortunate that it can't work as seamlessly with the Helix as it could the POD HD, but I certainly wouldn't count that as a strike against it. Being able to turn the knobs on the DT25 and have it reflect on the POD HD is incredibly convenient and has that immediate "wow-factor" we all love, but adjusting the knobs on the Helix isn't that much less convenient. Secondly, the other big feature that the "Dream Rig" has is the automatic power amp voice-switching capability. It's another thing that's very cool and can amaze your guitarist friends, but practically I cannot see myself needing to switch topologies in the middle of songs (Note: you can still control voicing controls and more with a MIDI footswitch). Instead, I just use the controls on the top of the amp to change the power-amp settings, ​which is still an incredible feature​.  I have a feeling that guitarists who use the DT25 will, like myself, find the settings that work best for them. Need to tighten up your extra-heavy distorted tone? Try Topology IV, Class AB, Triode. Do you want your tone to really breathe so that you can really feel every dynamic of your playing? Try Topology III, Class A, Pentode. Those settings will not​ work for everyone, but the great thing about the DT25 is that it's incredibly easy to find out what will​ work for you. Maybe you're playing through that Rectifier with the wrong tube settings, but isn't the fun of being a guitarist making up new sounds?

 

The way I see it, this amp is an all-around amazing piece of equipment, and while "Dream Rig" forward compatibility was a nice dream, it would have simply been a cherry on top. Just consider the L6 Link as a digital connection that feeds into the DT25 at the same point the input jack does: before the modeler. If you want to go after​ the modeler (and there are benefits and drawbacks to either method), go straight into the power amp input with a 1/4".

 

Do you have a need for a great-sounding tube power amp and cabinet system with configurable tube options with the ability to store 8 HD-quality amps and 2 independent reverbs for the road? If any of that appeals to you, then I highly recommend it. I saw someone selling a used DT25, right here on the forums, for $600. I got mine "open box" from Musician's Friend for $640. I'm sure deals will be easy to find as more Line 6 fans switch to the Helix and sell their DT25s because they believe them to be "incompatible". To FlyingsCool or anyone else who reads this post, let their loss be your gain, because while the two might not be seamless, they are an incredible pair.

 

Yeah, like @spikey, I would have bought a DT50 1x12 if I had the cash when they were blowing them out (I was so close!), but there also didn't seem very many of the 1x12's available.  They had a 2x12 in the store and I really liked it, but, man, so heavy.  I have been considering a DT25 1x12... but now, after doing research here for a while, it really looks like a DT50 head would be my favorite option, more manageable than the 2x12 monster or even a 1x12, with the advantages of the DT50.  I've already got a Helix and 2 L2s, so I don't really need it, but, hey, what's GAS for anyway?  Like the Boy Scout I am ( :P ) I like to be prepared... actually, probably more my ADD.  But really, sometimes I'd just like to plug into an amp, I can get option paralysis sometimes with the Helix..... 

 

So if I get the head, should I just get the 1 or 2x12 cab, or are there other options that work just as well for a cabinet?

 

Hmmm, wonder how they sound through an L2t by L6 Link?

[radatats]

So if I get the head, should I just get the 1 or 2x12 cab, or are there other options that work just as well for a cabinet?

 

Hmmm, wonder how they sound through an L2t by L6 Link?

 

Any decent cab works well with them.  I built my own cabs, 1X12 and a 2X12.  You don't need to have the Line 6 cab. 

 

You can't run the DT head by L6 link to the L2 cabs.  The tube head MUST have a cab attached or it will fry.  You could take the cab emulated signal from the direct out to the L2T but you still need a real cab attached too.

[FlyingsCool]

Any decent cab works well with them.  I built my own cabs, 1X12 and a 2X12.  You don't need to have the Line 6 cab. 

 

You can't run the DT head by L6 link to the L2 cabs.  The tube head MUST have a cab attached or it will fry.  You could take the cab emulated signal from the direct out to the L2T but you still need a real cab attached too.

 

Thanks,

 

Or a load box, but excellent point, thanks for pointing it out.  Obvious when somebody tells you, but I might have missed that on my own...