jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Quickly gone through the list of legacy FX in the HXFX manual and compared them to the HX effects and created a list of the ones that seem, from a quick glance, to not be already in Helix 2.30 Discuss if you spot any that are actually in Helix already, or if i made any errors. https://line6.com/data/6/0a020a3d3f4a5a6a1897ecdf6/application/pdf/HX%20Effects%202.50%20Owners%20Manual%20-%20English%20.pdf https://line6.com/m13/images/m13_modelgallery02.pdf 39 or 41 of the Legacy FX have not appeared in Helix before. See Pan/ panner and Cosmos Echo/Multi Head for indecision about two of the FX appearing in helix before. Distortion Models - 8 Heavy Dist BOSS® Metal Zone Colordrive Colorsound® Overdriver Buzz Saw Maestro® Fuzz Tone Jumbo Fuzz Vox® Tone Bender Jet Fuzz Roland® Jet Phaser L6 Drive Colorsound® Overdriver (modded) L6 Distortion Line 6 Original Sub Oct Fuzz PAiA Roctave Divider Dynamics Models - 5 Blue Comp BOSS® CS-1 Blue Comp Treb BOSS® CS-1 (Treble switch on) Vetta Comp Line 6 Original Vetta Juice Line 6 Original Boost Comp MXR® Micro Amp Modulation Models - 6-7 Pattern Trem Line 6 Original ?? Panner Line 6 Original - HX version is available in Helix Pan/Volume- ? Panned Phaser Ibanez® Flying Pan Barberpole Phaser Line 6 Original Dual Phaser Mu-Tron® Bi-Phase Dimension Roland® Dimension DFreq Shift Line 6 Original Delay Models - 6/7Stereo Line 6 Original Dig w/Mod Line 6 Original Lo Res Line 6 Original Tube Echo Maestro® Echoplex EP-1 Echo Platter Binson® EchoRec® Auto-Vol Echo Line 6 OriginalMulti-Head Roland® RE-101 Space Echo (Helix has Cosmos Echo - based on the Roland RE-201 Version, according to the HXFX manual) Pitch/Synth Models - 6 Bass Octaver EBS® OctaBass Octi Synth Line 6 OriginalSynth O Matic Line 6 Original Attack Synth Korg® X911 Guitar Synth Synth String Roland® GR700 Guitar Synth Growler Line 6 Original Filter Models - 8 Voice Box Line 6 OriginalQ Filter Line 6 OriginalSeeker Z Vex Seek Wah Obi Wah Oberheim® voltage-controlled S&H filter Throbber Electrix® Filter Factory Slow Filter Line 6 Original Spin Cycle Craig Anderton's Wah/Anti-Wah Comet Trails Line 6 Original 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverhead Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Note that even for those Legacy models that already exist in Helix the underlying modeling technology is different so they won't sound exactly the same. You should consider them to be two different models of the same analog device. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherDeLorme Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Note that even for those Legacy models that already exist in Helix the underlying modeling technology is different so they won't sound exactly the same. You should consider them to be two different models of the same analog device. As I understand it in 2.5 the legacy effects that already exist in the Helix will be moved to the Legacy folder, and the legacy effects (that don’t exist yet in the Helix) will also be added to the Legacy folder. But then, in 2.5 you will have in the Legacy folder.....duplicate names....? Probably not, they probably will be recognizable. Just thinking aloud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 Note that even for those Legacy models that already exist in Helix the underlying modeling technology is different so they won't sound exactly the same. You should consider them to be two different models of the same analog device. Thanks Silverhead, Totally for sure i get that and its good to know to compare and experiment... Just wanted to create a list of FX that havent appeared in Helix before, I have just looked at the updated "Helix Amp Model Gallery - Real Controls vs Invented" and realise there are some differences in our lists of which FX have or have not already appeared as FX in helix FW2.3.... http://line6.com/support/topic/19961-helix-amp-model-gallery-real-controls-vs-invented/page-2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 As I understand it in 2.5 the legacy effects that already exist in the Helix will be moved to the Legacy folder, and the legacy effects (that don’t exist yet in the Helix) will also be added to the Legacy folder. But then, in 2.5 you will have in the Legacy folder.....duplicate names....? My understanding is this will only be for the reverbs. The reverbs in FW 2.3 will be moved into the reverb legacy folder. An the new FW2.5 HX reverbs have different names to the current FW2.3 reverbs, so no duplication of names Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherDeLorme Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 My understanding is this will only be for the reverbs. The reverbs in FW 2.3 will be moved into the reverb legacy folder. An the new FW2.5 HX reverbs have different names to the current FW2.3 reverbs, so no duplication of names Only the reverbs in Helix 2.3 are legacy by origin? Could be, could not be, I don’t know. About your list: I think I spot something: the Roland Space Echo is already in Helix 2.3, it is called Cosmos Echo. .....There you have it: thats not a reverb :) BUT: it indeed does have a different name. BUT, I get a bit confused now, cause Cosmos Echo is probably not considered as legacy origin...or is it? Whatever......we will know it when 2.5 arrives, its not that important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 Only the reverbs in Helix 2.3 are legacy by origin? Could be, could not be, I don’t know. About your list: I think I spot something: the Roland Space Echo is already in Helix 2.3, it is called Cosmos Echo. .....There you have it: thats not a reverb :) BUT: it indeed does have a different name. BUT, I get a bit confused now, cause Cosmos Echo is probably not considered as legacy origin...or is it? Whatever......we will know it when 2.5 arrives, its not that important. Only the Reverbs In Helix 2.3 were non HX effects and thus will become legacy once the new HX reverbs arrive - correct according to the HX effects manual https://line6.com/data/6/0a020a3d3f4a5a6a1897ecdf6/application/pdf/HX%20Effects%202.50%20Owners%20Manual%20-%20English%20.pdf Yes the Helix does have a space / cosmos echo... The cosmos echo is Helix 2.3 is based on the Roland® RE-202 Space Echo Where as the Legacy Multi head effect is based the Roland RE-101 Space Echo, according to the HXFX manual.... I dont know How much difference there was between the original RE101 and 202 and how different the HX and legacy versions will sound - we will found out... Here is a bit of background on it.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_RE-201 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Don't know whether this is actually the case but I have heard that the Helix wah effects were "legacy" ports as well. If that is true shouldn't they be placed under the "Legacy" heading also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 Don't know whether this is actually the case but I have heard that the Helix wah effects were "legacy" ports as well. If that is true shouldn't they be placed under the "Legacy" heading also? Hey thanks that info... Just pulled up this post... phil_m, on 28 Sept 2016 - 5:08 PM, said: All the delays on the Helix are HX level... They were all made from scratch for the Helix. Actually, of all the effects on the Helix, all of them are completely new except the reverbs and the 6 HD wahs. http://line6.com/support/topic/23027-transparent-boostod/?p=175222 Can anyone at Line 6 chime in and confirm if the Wahs are legacy or HX versions? thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Hey thanks that info... Just pulled up this post... phil_m, on 28 Sept 2016 - 5:08 PM, said: All the delays on the Helix are HX level... They were all made from scratch for the Helix. Actually, of all the effects on the Helix, all of them are completely new except the reverbs and the 6 HD wahs. http://line6.com/support/topic/23027-transparent-boostod/?p=175222 Can anyone at Line 6 chiem in and confirm it the Wahs are legacy or HX versions? thank you Nice research! Then I guess theoretically those wahs should be placed under the "Legacy" heading under both documentation and hardware, and moved to the "Legacy" part of the effect selection list on all Helix/HX hardware and software. That also begs the question of is it worth upgrading those wahs or providing new HX equivalents or alternatives at some point? My vote would be "yes". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 Whatever......we will know it when 2.5 arrives, its not that important. haha Nothing to see here.... Yes Not important... just killing time whilst the the FW2.5 page saying 'nothing here yet'... but when it does land i will have already done some background digging about the new (old) FX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 Nice research! Then I guess theoretically those wahs should be placed under the "Legacy" heading under both documentation and hardware, and moved to the "Legacy" part of the effect selection list on all Helix/HX hardware and software. That also begs the question of is it worth upgrading those wahs or providing new HX equivalents or alternatives at some point? My vote would be "yes" My vote would be Yes too... if they are HD versions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 Digital Igloo on The Gear Page June 12th 2015 At launch, all reverb models are based on HD models, but rebuilt in HX. They sound notably better in Helix tho'. Eight of the ten wahs came from HD as well. All other FX models were created from scratch in HX. https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/20130691/ july 2nd 2015 We felt that two HX wahs weren't enough, and the eight HD wah models were fairly simple to rebuild in HX (unlike models in other categories). https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/20226571/ April 8th 2016 The only reason we ported 8 out of 10 wahs and the reverbs from HD (everything else is built from scratch in HX) is because we simply ran out of time. Ideally, everything in Helix would've been brand new. I'm not morally opposed to porting M-Class/HD models to HX, but we'd much rather make new stuff. https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/21734256/ Since then we have got loads of new stuff and now the bonus of legacy FX too..... thanks line 6 and digital igloo for seeing to all of that So which 2 Wahs are HX? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zooey Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Re the wahs, personally, I think a simple resonance control for each of them would add a lot more than the subtle differences between modeling generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 The 2 HX wahs - UK and Teardrop. BenAdrian - TGP https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/23035076/ Digital Igloo - TGP https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/20267812/ The Reverbs and eight of the ten wahs are HD models rebuilt within the HX engine. We also rebuilt Doom, Epic, and Elektrik, but they're favorite custom hybrids that, IIRC, utilize some HX components—will have to confirm with sound design on Monday. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherDeLorme Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 @jaybee77 - really thanks for your replies! :) That list in the pdf file of HX FX manual (page 16 and further) is interesting! But it feeds a bit my initial question about a possible problem of duplicate names.......All the Legacy reverbs in the HX FX manual list do have the same name on first glance as the ones that are in Helix 2.3 now......so.......if Line 6 moves these to the new Legacy folder and add the original legacy reverbs, all the names of the reverbs are duplicate :) or am I missing something? Do the “real†legacy reverbs (from the M-series or whatever) have different names than Hall, etc? PS. Interesting to see how much time and energy I spend on uninteresting and soon solved issues. Haha :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 @jaybee77 - really thanks for your replies! :) That list in the pdf file of HX FX manual (page 16 and further) is interesting! But it feeds a bit my initial question about a possible problem duplicate names.......All the Legacy reverbs in the HX FX manual list do have the same name on first glance as the ones that are in Helix 2.3 now......so.......if Line 6 moves these to the new Legacy folder and add the original legacy reverbs, all the names of the reverbs are duplicate :) or am I missing something? Do the “real†legacy reverbs (from the M-series or whatever) have different names than Hall, etc? Sure the answer is that "At launch, all reverb models are based on HD models, but rebuilt in HX." Digital Igloo That means the 12 reverbs currently in FW2.3 are HD Legacy Models and Not HX, thus they will be classed as Legacy in FW2.5. No new legacy reverbs will be moved to helix as helix already contains them. Those 12 reverbs in FW2.3 will be moved into a legacy folder, and the 5 new HX reverbs will be in the Mono/Stereo folders... for now there wont be any duplicates e.g. there wont be a reverb in both the legacy and mono/stereo folders with the name of Plate, as the Plate reverb is an HD reverb and thus will only be in the legacy folder. Hope that clears up any confusion. In the future Line 6 might decide to release an HX Plate reverb, but im guessing to avoid confusion they wont give the HX plate reverb the name Plate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherDeLorme Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Sure the answer is that "At launch, all reverb models are based on HD models, but rebuilt in HX." Digital Igloo That means the 12 reverbs currently in FW2.3 are HD Legacy Models and Not HX, thus they will be classed as Legacy in FW2.5. No new legacy reverbs will be moved to helix as helix already contains them. Those 12 reverbs in FW2.3 will be moved into a legacy folder, and the 5 new HX reverbs will be in the Mono/Stereo folders... for now there wont be any duplicates e.g. there wont be a reverb in both the legacy and mono/stereo folders with the name of Plate, as the Plate reverb is an HD reverb and thus will only be in the legacy folder. Hope that clears up any confusion. In the future Line 6 might decide to release an HX Plate reverb, but im guessing to avoid confusion they wont give the HX plate reverb the name Plate! So in 2.5 there will be no direct import from reverbs of the M-series? But Silverhead speaks about 2 different models of the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 So in 2.5 there will be no direct import from reverbs of the M-series? Exactly - wait for 2.5 to arrive all will make sense.. like you said we will know it when 2.5 arrives, its not that important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherDeLorme Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Exactly - wait for 2.5 to arrive all will make sense.. like you said we will know it when 2.5 arrives, its not that important. ok, you’re right, I will leave the fuzz I make out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twystedriffs Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 I wonder if the legacy version of the helix model would be less dsp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverhead Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 So in 2.5 there will be no direct import from reverbs of the M-series? But Silverhead speaks about 2 different models of the same thing. It gets a bit complicated. The reverbs in Helix prior to v2.50 are based on HD modeling technology and simply ported to Helix. That's what has now been done to all the other Legacy HD effects in v2.50. Accordingly the HD Reverb models have been moved to join the others in the Legacy category. The new reverbs in v2.50 are brand new and use the HX modeling technology; you will find those in the Stereo section of the Reverbs. All other FX in Helix (except for a few Wah models apparently) are brand new FX based on HX modeling. For instance, all the Delay FX are brand new and they will stay in the existing Mono/Stereo sections when you look at the Delays in v2.50. There will be a new section called Legacy where all the newly imported HD Delay FX will live. When I spoke of two different models of the same FX I was referring to some physical analog pedals that Line 6 has modelled using both HD and HX technologies. You will now find those FX models in both the Legacy (HD modeling) and the Mono/Stereo (HX modeling) sections. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 I wonder if the legacy version of the helix model would be less dsp? Yes that would be expected, gives you options if you hit a DSP limit to use a less intensive FX from the legacy group. Also not all legacy FX are available in stereo - taken from the HXFX manual Legacy effects models vary in behavior, just as on the classic Line 6 effects from where these models originated. • Legacy Distortion, Dynamics & Pitch/Synth effects are mono. • Legacy Modulation & Delay effects vary in that some are mono, some stereo, and some mono-in/stereo-out, where adjusting the effect's Mix parameter can narrow the stereo image that is fed into them. It is best to experiment with these effects and tweak the Mix parameter to achieve the desired stereo output results. • Legacy Filter and Reverb effects are stereo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twystedriffs Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 nice! think it's a very cool addition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Regarding the wahs, I believe the reason the wahs that were ported over from the HD series aren't in the Legacy folder is that they have been modified in the Helix version. The HD/M-series wahs only had Position and Mix parameters. In the Helix, they added the Fc Low and Fc High (Fc = Cutoff Frequency) parameters to those models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherDeLorme Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 It gets a bit complicated. The reverbs in Helix prior to v2.50 are based on HD modeling technology and simply ported to Helix. That's what has now been done to all the other Legacy HD effects in v2.50. Accordingly the HD Reverb models have been moved to join the others in the Legacy category. The new reverbs in v2.50 are brand new and use the HX modeling technology; you will find those in the Stereo section of the Reverbs. All other FX in Helix (except for a few Wah models apparently) are brand new FX based on HX modeling. For instance, all the Delay FX are brand new and they will stay in the existing Mono/Stereo sections when you look at the Delays in v2.50. There will be a new section called Legacy where all the newly imported HD Delay FX will live. When I spoke of two different models of the same FX I was referring to some physical analog pedals that Line 6 has modelled using both HD and HX technologies. You will now find those FX models in both the Legacy (HD modeling) and the Mono/Stereo (HX modeling) sections. Thanks for clarifying! I misinterpreted you words, but now I begin to understand. There are now in the 2.3 Helix: HD and HX effects. The HD are Legacy effects. The 77 effects from older devices are also HD effects and will be placed in the new Legacy folder in 2.5. The HD effects from 2.3 will also be placed there. I thought you meant by “two models of the same device†: legacy in Helix vs legacy not in Helix, but you meant HX models vs HD models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 ... In the future Line 6 might decide to release an HX Plate reverb, but im guessing to avoid confusion they wont give the HX plate reverb the name Plate! "Gold Plate", "Blue Plate Special" (old school reverb, really old), "Platechtonic"? :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presonid Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Thank you jaybee77 http://line6.com/support/topic/19961-helix-amp-model-gallery-real-controls-vs-invented/page-2 fixed, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 Thank you jaybee77 http://line6.com/support/topic/19961-helix-amp-model-gallery-real-controls-vs-invented/page-2 fixed, Thank you to you too. your work over past couple years has been exemplary... Just a Note: There is a Chandler Tube driver in FW2.3 called Valve Driver, the legacy version in FW2.5 being Tube Drive. And there is a HX Ping Pong delay in FW2.3 and a Legacy version in FW2.5 Also whilst the Adriatic Swell could be classed as being similar to the Auto Vol echo, People are saying they find them different. The Legacy Modulation FX contains Analog Flanger and AC Flanger, both are based on the MXR 117 Flanger - There is an HX version called Gray Flanger in FW2.3 https://line6.com/m13/images/m13_modelgallery02.pdf Similarly the Legacy Modulation FX contains Jet Flanger and 80A Flanger - both are based on the A/DA Flanger - There is an HX version called Harmonic Flanger Lastly Helix has a Pan option in Volume/Pan Models, and there is a legacy Panner in FW2.5 which is an L6 Original Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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