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bshaw92

Helix Cabs_Mics

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So I was looking through the forum to see if this has already been confirmed. Could not see anything, but there are a lot of pages so....

 

1.) Are the Cabs and (mics) models of the actual real world counterparts or simple "screenshots" (IR's) ?

 

With UA coming out with modeled speakers and mics I was curious if we already had this in the Helix. I have been playing with IR's for a while and lately comparing IR's in the HX Effects with an amp from a load box against 2 cabinets in the Helix using different mics.  Would like to know if anyone can confirm this or not.

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I . . . I am genuinely not sure what you are saying the difference is.

 

At the most basic they are clearly NOT just IRs because you can manipulate them in ways that you can't do with one IR alone. However, I am confidant they still began with impulse responses to determine just how those cabs and mics behaved. 

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A model is a theoretical "true" representation of the actual part. It would react in theory dynamically.

 

An IR is not a model. It is a sample at a given point and does not react dynamically. It may work great throughout the range of settings but is still a static representation.

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Let me see....LOTS of people claim that the Helix cabs sound like poop, and you can't get a decent sound out of Helix without IRs, which are essentially screenshots, static representations of a specific sound captured at a point in time.

 

Lots of people think that the above is poop, that the Helix cabs sound just fine.

 

As always, the truth is "Rock what sounds best to YOU!"

 

If neither IRs nor Helix cabs (however they're created) float your boat, and you've got the cash to spare, go with the new UA "models".

 

PLEASE DO report back with your experience (with comparative sound clips).

 

Inquiring minds (with small budgets) want to know.....

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37 minutes ago, bshaw92 said:

A model is a theoretical "true" representation of the actual part. It would react in theory dynamically.

 

An IR is not a model. It is a sample at a given point and does not react dynamically. It may work great throughout the range of settings but is still a static representation.

 

I get that, but I believe they still have to start with an IR to determine how the original cab responds to sound travelling through it. 

 

Anyway, check out this original post from the designer of the Helix (Digital Igloo). It gives SOME insight into how the cabs work:

 

 

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Here is another video that goes over some more information (obviously you're never going to get their "secret sauce," just a glimpse at some ingredients). Pertinent part starts at 2:30. 

 

 

 

Once again, they always refer to it as "cab modelling," but it does clearly start out with a frequency response (which is measured with an IR - I mean - how else are you going to know what the performance is of the device you are trying to model?). 

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What if C-A-T really spelled DOG?

 

If we connect the 3rd framistan to the 11th Fetzer valve via the boomerang conduit, you'll sound just like EVH. 

 

Does any of this matter? Will it change what you had for lunch? Like the stock cabs? Awesome...use them. Prefer IR's? Awesome...use them. Think they both suck and wish you'd bought a Kemper? Awesome. Sell the Helix and go shopping....

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1 hour ago, cruisinon2 said:

What if C-A-T really spelled DOG?

 

If we connect the 3rd framistan to the 11th Fetzer valve via the boomerang conduit, you'll sound just like EVH. 

 

Does any of this matter? Will it change what you had for lunch? Like the stock cabs? Awesome...use them. Prefer IR's? Awesome...use them. Think they both suck and wish you'd bought a Kemper? Awesome. Sell the Helix and go shopping....

 

I gotta be honest, my nerdy self is in to how they do this stuff. However, not from the common perspective of I have a lollipop with the stock cabs and am arguing for a better way. 

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17 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

If we connect the 3rd framistan to the 11th Fetzer valve via the boomerang conduit, you'll sound just like EVH. 

 

That's silly! Everyone knows that the connection between the 3rd Framistan and the Mystical Boomerang Conduit by way of ANY form of Fetzer Valve has yet to be definitively proven, much less modeled! The rumor that Fractal plans to release a model incorporating that technology is just that, a rumor!

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Here's another commentary on the original stock cabs taken from the Helix Blog that was unfortunately taken down (sadly). The remarks are from Digital Igloo, I found them quoted on the Gear Page with a link to the blog:

 

Along with its suite of internal speaker cabinet models, Helix also allows you to load high-quality impulse responses from third parties. While this is a fantastic option to have, it’s important to note that the factory speaker cabinets in Helix offer a number of advancements over traditional static third-party impulses.


We call the speaker emulations in Helix “hybrid cabs”, because they use a number of proprietary algorithms to reproduce the same frequency and dynamic accuracy typically seen in a 2048-point impulse response, but at far lower DSP usage. 


Not only that, a hybrid cab allows you to move the microphone from directly on the grill to up to 12 inches away (in .5 inch increments), and accurately captures the proximity effect/bass boost of the microphone in all positions while doing so. All of this detail means that the speaker cabinet reacts just like the real thing, not just sounding better but feeling better under your fingers.


Due to the efficiency improvements hybrid cabs offer, it’s actually possible to run up to four speaker cabinets at once in Helix (depending on DSP load), all with different microphones and microphone positions!

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Thanks for that. They use the terms static and dynamic so that answers my question. The specifics will never be answered because they won't say how. It points to the side of taking different IR shots to achieve a "dynamic" representation of the speakers and mics. Thanks.

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I know the original poster (bshaw92) just indicated that he has had his question answered, but since it got me started on a quest to learn what I could (slow night) I wanted to add this quote from Digital Igloo since it also adds more to the convo.

 

Maybe someday someone else will ask about the stock cabs/IR question and this thread will be a nice source of info that pops up:

 

 

 

Either way though, to me this solidifies my belief that the whole "IR" obsession is a bit of an "Emperor Has no Clothes" story.  Realistically that analogy is FAR too harsh to reality - I'm not saying 3rd party IRs aren't a legitimate thing, they clearly can and often DO sound amazing, and I'm VERY grateful that the HX line lets you use them (and someday I may jump further down that hole than I already have). In fact, it's entirely rational to prefer 3rd party IRs to the stock cabs. 

 

However, when people like me prefer stock cabs it makes perfect sense. Based on how Line 6 describes them, it's more on par with me saying, "I prefer Line 6 IRs over Ownhammer Irs" than me saying, "I prefer Line 6 cab emulations over Ownhammer IRs."

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