IR Output parameter

[themetallikid]

I tried reaching out the IR company, and haven't not heard back in 4-5 days....so....just trying to apply some of my own logic and think/type outloud...

 

The IR company states to not increase the IR block output if you need to match levels of input/output.  GIven the nature of what this block is providing to me, and how I like to keep my Amp Blocks consistent with settings for volume and such......I would like to follow their instructions....however...

 

There are some pretty wide variances between the 15-20 or so that I am using or have selected as potential uses in my presets.  I've tried 'normalizing' them, as well as increasing the IR block output level and it just does the same as raising the output block on an EQ, its not a true clean level increase (it is, but its increasing the effect of the IR/EQ being used).  So I tried going the route that they suggested and using a 'gain' block to help match levels.  However, here are a few questions I have....maybe you can provide answers or guide me better....

 

1) the IR's load at -18db on the output block.  Some of the IR's I can leave at -18db and they match my bypassed signal level (done with a preset with no other blocks and comparing dry signal to IR/-18db volume) and I think the highest is at 0db on the output level to match the bypassed signal.  So with using a gain block, I have noted in a spreadsheet what each specific IR I may use needs to be boosted to match my signal strength.  That way I'm getting the IR benefits consistently without compromising the rest of my sound in the preset.  With that said.....is there a better way than using a gain block to help get the quieter ones back up to where I need them?  The gain block only goes up to +12db so the ones that are 'fine' at -18db are still 6db quieter signal wise.  I could compensate with a 2nd gain block potentially, but that's now 3 block spaces I need instead of just the 1.  

 

2) Does it matter if the gain block is pre/post in relation to the IR Block?  in my head both make sense....when I tested it I can't hear a difference...

 

 

I get that some of what the IR's are providing are a lower output signal and all, but Im more after the tonal characteristics not the 'gain structuring' characteristics that a lower vs higher output pickup would provide. 

 

Sorry, bored at work rambling/musings/questions

[DunedinDragon]

If I'm understanding you correctly I think you may be over complicating things here.  I too have noted the differences in various IR outputs, but I generally compensate for them in the same way I compensate for any difference in volumes of my patches by simply adjusting the amp model's channel volume.  In the end all that matters is the output signal level needs to be consistent across patches regardless of different amps or IRs.  I personally can't perceive any difference in the finished tone with this approach and it's surely less complicated and easier to manage and maintain my patches if I adjust the volume of my patches in a consistent way, and Line 6 has assured us many time that the channel volume won't have any effect on tone.

[themetallikid]

1 hour ago, DunedinDragon said:

If I'm understanding you correctly I think you may be over complicating things here.  I too have noted the differences in various IR outputs, but I generally compensate for them in the same way I compensate for any difference in volumes of my patches by simply adjusting the amp model's channel volume.  In the end all that matters is the output signal level needs to be consistent across patches regardless of different amps or IRs.  I personally can't perceive any difference in the finished tone with this approach and it's surely less complicated and easier to manage and maintain my patches if I adjust the volume of my patches in a consistent way, and Line 6 has assured us many time that the channel volume won't have any effect on tone.

I agree, it is a bit complicated the way I approach things.  For consistency purposes though I have my basic tone presets, they are balanced volume wise, my lead boosts are where I want them as is.  

 

The IR's I'm speaking of are the 3Sigma Guitar IRs.  So I can get a closer single coil/LP/Tele flavor in my sound (Variax is a want, but not an option currently for me).  But the IR files vary greatly in ouput.  On their website they instruct to us a separate gain block and adjust that instead of adjusting the IR blocks output.  Which I assume would cause the same issues as boosting an EQ block (you further enhance/minimize any boost/cuts)...so that makes sense....but I have an 18db difference in the IR outputs (when I did a separate test to get the 'unity' number for that IR File.  So to compensate, and not use the IR Output as instructed, I added a Gain Block, however the gain block only goes to +12, so that means the ones that are -18db to be unity are still 6db short signal wise.  

 

I just didn't know if there was a better approach to getting the level where I would like it to be for consistency purposes.  Also if it mattered whether the gain block was pre or post of the IR block.

 

I got an email back from them and they sorta went against their instructional recommendation and said there was no harm in raising the IR output parameter.  Tonight I try that approach and see...didn't seem to sound bad at home....

 

I'm splitting atoms that only I will probably notice...and I know that.  I enjoy my madness though.  lol

[gunpointmetal]

If you're using them to treat the incoming sound I would totally use the IR output level to adjust the level going into any other modeling. Seems like the most transparent way to even out what is more or less your input volume at that point.

[themetallikid]

29 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

If you're using them to treat the incoming sound I would totally use the IR output level to adjust the level going into any other modeling. Seems like the most transparent way to even out what is more or less your input volume at that point.

Right,  initially that was my reaction when I dropped one of the single coil IR's in and my preset dropped.  I then read on their site that they recommend leaving the IR block as is and adding a gain block to compensate. And after thinking about it it made sense, you don't compensate signal level with an EQ block that has cuts/boosts....and when I initially tried it, it had the same result.  Exaggerated peaks/cuts on the frequencies involved.   

 

We'll see tonight...

[codamedia]

On 12/31/2019 at 1:40 PM, gunpointmetal said:

If you're using them to treat the incoming sound I would totally use the IR output level to adjust the level going into any other modeling. Seems like the most transparent way to even out what is more or less your input volume at that point.

 

This is how I approach it with the IR Block. If an IR is cutting too much volume, I simply increase the output level (on that block) to compensate. Keep it all on one block.. makes it easier to bypass or swap it out later without trying to remember where you compensated the added volume.

 

On 12/31/2019 at 2:12 PM, themetallikid said:

I then read on their site that they recommend leaving the IR block as is and adding a gain block to compensate.

 

Were those instructions specific to the Helix? There is an output level on the IR block for a reason... and when you add an IR block on the Helix it defaults to -18 (IIRC).... there is no harm in raising that to -10 or even 0 if needed.  Adding a gain block "after the IR" or using the output level on the IR Block is going to do the exact same thing. Why use an additional block.

[themetallikid]

2 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

This is how I approach it with the IR Block. If an IR is cutting too much volume, I simply increase the output level (on that block) to compensate. Keep it all on one block.. makes it easier to bypass or swap it out later without trying to remember where you compensated the added volume.

 

 

Were those instructions specific to the Helix? There is an output level on the IR block for a reason... and when you add an IR block on the Helix it defaults to -18 (IIRC).... there is no harm in raising that to -10 or even 0 if needed.  Adding a gain block "after the IR" or using the output level on the IR Block is going to do the exact same thing. Why use an additional block.

 

Right, those were much my initial thoughts.... i'm not sure if the instructions were 'Helix' specific, just remember when I first tested it, some seemed much quieter than others and when I raised the IR block it seemed to exaggerate what the IR is doing to the sound. 

 

 

Update:  I removed the Gain blocks and just used the IR output parameter at my NYE show and didn't notice anything being 'overcooked'....so i'll just attribute my previous experience as maybe an extra beer or two that night setting them up and hearing things differently for some reason.  Still good info to know, but weird.