More looper in FX Loop strangeness [solved!]

[grdGo33]

So I'm still confused about what is happening with the PGO FX Loops...   So I have a looper pedal.  Depending on where the FX Loop sits in the chain, I get weird noise artifacts.  And that is with the looper 'off'; not looping at all:

 

1)   IN -> VOL -> WAH -> DIST -> AMP -> CAB -> DELAY -> REVERB -> FX LOOP -> OUT  = noticeable clipping/distortion in the sound

2)   IN -> VOL -> WAH -> FX LOOP -> DIST -> AMP -> CAB -> DELAY -> REVERB -> OUT  = very high noise, as if the noise gate had been shut down.

3)   IN -> VOL -> WAH -> DIST -> FX LOOP -> AMP -> CAB -> DELAY -> REVERB -> OUT  = absolutely ZERO noise, distortion or clipping, works perfectly.

 

Can anyone figure why that would be?   I thought that because of #1, there was an issue between PGO and the looper pedal, but since with #3 it works perfectly, it doesn't appear to be an issue between PGO and the pedal. 

 

I also don't understand #2, the pedal has virtually no noise, it is really virtually silent:  I can have the PGO and amp volume maxed, and I hear zero no noise.  But if I move the FX Loop before the distortion pedal, it gets VERY noisy.  The amount of noise actually depends on which distortion pedals are used, the two L6 distortion being the worse culprits.  But since the Looper pedal makes virtually no noise, I don't understand why the PGO gets super noisy when the FX loop is before the distortion and 100% noiseless when it is after it...   I mean, if the noise was 0.1dB and the distortion bumped it to 0.4dB that would be normal or expected.  But as is, it's really like the noise of the pedal is 0.001dB, but when you turn on the distortion pedal, it becomes 1dB, which is a totally abnormal and unexpected amount of 'amplified' noise, since there's no noise to begin with...

 

 

[grdGo33]

 

22 hours ago, grdGo33 said:

2)   IN -> VOL -> WAH -> FX LOOP -> DIST -> AMP -> CAB -> DELAY -> REVERB -> OUT  = very high noise, as if the noise gate had been shut down.

I also don't understand #2, the pedal has virtually no noise, it is really virtually silent:  I can have the PGO and amp volume maxed, and I hear zero no noise.  But if I move the FX Loop before the distortion pedal, it gets VERY noisy.  The amount of noise actually depends on which distortion pedals are used, the two L6 distortion being the worse culprits.  But since the Looper pedal makes virtually no noise, I don't understand why the PGO gets super noisy when the FX loop is before the distortion and 100% noiseless when it is after it...   I mean, if the noise was 0.1dB and the distortion bumped it to 0.4dB that would be normal or expected.  But as is, it's really like the noise of the pedal is 0.001dB, but when you turn on the distortion pedal, it becomes 1dB, which is a totally abnormal and unexpected amount of 'amplified' noise, since there's no noise to begin with...

 

Think I'm slowly figuring it out...  The Looper pedal isn't actually that silent, it just appears to be 100% silent because of the noise gate... (duh!)  My bad...   So it does have its inherent noise.  So when your guitar is plugged to looper to Go, there's no noise because of the noise gate.  But when you introduce the looper pedal through FX Loop, FXL doesn't have a noise gate, noise gets introduced.  Logical.

 

But it doesn't explain why it clips when at the end of the chain.  I think it might be because of some volume wizardry of the PGO.   And yeah, just tested it, and it seems to be the case.  PGO is weird with volume...  If I use the looper at the start of the chain and play some chords, let's say it'll be 10dB.  But if I play the same thing and record with the looper at the end of the PGO chain, then the volume is like 30dB.  And it clips.  Which isn't too surprising, as the looper is likely designed for instrument level, and PGO's end of chain volume is likely stronger than what a normal instrument would generate.

 

So it's a patch volume level issue.  I'm guessing that if you want to use a looper pedal in that fashion, your patches need to take into consideration SPL at the end of the chain, otherwise, it can 'overwhelm' your guitar pedals and make them clip.  OR, set your FX Loop send to something like -13dB in my specific case, which results to a more normal input loudness for the pedal, and then it works without clipping.

 

Which also means that you have to be careful with other devices output/input volumes.  Lowering PGO's volume could result in improved performance.  And going with many of the patches I've downloaded, where people max out the amp's channel and master volume, it's likely to cause similar issues when outputting to consoles, recording software (maybe), and even things like the return of power cab or amp or whatever.. etc...