Powercab set up.

[Wondo100]

I know I would technically be better served over in the power cab section, but two posts several days ago and no answers. 

I just received my two112  PC+. Starting with just one. Made sure the PC edit software was up to date and then did the firmware update. Plugged in and started to play. Tried some of my Helix patches through FRFR first to get a feel for it. I had these before and sent them back, but got them again, because I think I gave up too quick. I know this set up can be good, so I want to do it right. 

 

In looking at one video on youtube, they say to adjust the global settings on the PC. On Jason Sadite's video he says to leave that alone and use the settings in the Helix. I want to be able to get a good setting for volume to start building my presets. Loaded in the LRS powercab IRs, my God these things are excellent, but still want to make sure I am setting all of this up volume-wise first. 

 

Thanks for any help you can offer. 

[rd2rk]

The "Global" settings available from Helix and HX Edit define the starting points for the Presets. Changing the Preset settings (saved with the Preset) overrides but does not CHANGE the Global settings.

 

The "Global" settings available from the cab itself or from Powercab Edit (System) are different, having to do with Input behavior, Hi Frequency Trim (tweeter level), MIDI and USB.

 

Confusing.

[Wondo100]

Yes. confusing. Not sure how to proceed. I dialed in a really good tone and the light on the PC was only clipping into the red periodically and I heard no clipping, but the volume knob on the PC was about halfway up and it was loud, but could tell it would not keep up with a band. But, many have said the PC is plenty loud if you dial it in properly, which I am afraid I am not doing 

[rd2rk]

Open up Powercab Edit. Click on "SYSTEM".

Where are your Input Gain settings?

Close SYSTEM (click it again). What are your Level settings for Flat/Speaker/User IR?

Are you using Helix with the BIG KNOB maxed?

 

I read a post by a guy said he maxed every level he could find and couldn't hang with his drummer.

I use the BIG KNOB maxed (0.0db) and every other level (other than amp/channel) set to 0.0, PC Volume at 1/3-1/2.

Any higher I'd go deaf.

If I did what that guy claimed he did my neighbors wouldn't have to call the cops, they'd hear me two miles away at the cop shop!

 

[Wondo100]

Hey rd2rk. Thanks again for being such a help. I appreciate it. Getting late here. System shut down. How about, I attach the preset I am using tomorrow and you can look at it and I will also list the settings I have on the PC. Thank you!

[rd2rk]

I work tomorrow, so won't be able to look at it till Thursday, but maybe someone else will have a look at it.

[waymda]

Hi Wondo - not with my PC+ atm (I use 2 as you do) but one thing I remember is changing the input gain to 0db.  I think it was -18(?) as default which made them not as loud as I wanted.

 

I run them with the Helix knob ignored (global settings) and the LED hits red occasionally with no audible clipping, and at half volume on the PC+ they are plenty loud enough for a 3 piece, if I turn them up beyond 1 o'clock the guys complain.

 

No other changes to the PC+ system settings.

 

 

[Wondo100]

So now I am confused. I think what I am seeing with these presets is orange and not red, but I cannot really tell. I am somewhat color blind and maybe I am not noticing the difference. Wish the colors were something like blue, green, and red. However, if it is red I am seeing, it happens really easily in a lot of presets. If it is orange than there is not worries. However, I cannot push anything into the red and I have tried a lot of db increases to do so. This is very frustrating. 

 

Powercab Settings:

Input 1 Gain 0

Input 2 Gain 0

High Frequency Trim 0

Using Speaker Setting - Vintage. Low Cut 100 HZ. Hi Cut 12 kHz Level 0

 

Helix Settings:

Using Digital out into Powercab

Output leve is 0

Big knob max

Guitar pad is off. I do not have active pickups and this setting does not make a difference with what I am seeing. 

 

Attached is the Helix Preset

SEEK DESTROY.hlx

[rd2rk]

I think that you are overemphasizing the importance of the yellow/red LED thing.

I'm NOT color blind, and I have difficulty telling the difference.

I set my preset levels so that a hard strummed bar chord causes the LED to flicker from GREEN to whatever the next level is.

Since I use the Output Block Level as a Clean Boost, this gives me Headroom when I hit the Boost for a Lead.

 

Are you using L6 Link? If so, with the BIG KNOB maxed or disabled you should have 0.0db hitting the PC Input.

 

Since @waymda uses two PCs like you, he may have more knowledge about that configuration than me, but I seem to remember reading somewhere (helpful, I know) that there was some trick to using two PCs together to get full volume.

[Wondo100]

26 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

I think that you are overemphasizing the importance of the yellow/red LED thing.

I'm NOT color blind, and I have difficulty telling the difference.

I set my preset levels so that a hard strummed bar chord causes the LED to flicker from GREEN to whatever the next level is.

Since I use the Output Block Level as a Clean Boost, this gives me Headroom when I hit the Boost for a Lead.

 

Are you using L6 Link? If so, with the BIG KNOB maxed or disabled you should have 0.0db hitting the PC Input.

 

Since @waymda uses two PCs like you, he may have more knowledge about that configuration than me, but I seem to remember reading somewhere (helpful, I know) that there was some trick to using two PCs together to get full volume.

Thanks. When I strum it goes from green to whatever color immediately, no flickering. I am not really noticing any clipping, but want to make sure that I am doing this right. I am using L6 Link with brand new Mogami AES cable. I have not even taken out the other cabinet out of the box yet. I wanted to get the one all set up first. At one point this morning when working with all of this, a terrible hiss came out of the cab. It just appeared out of nowhere. I turned it off and turned it back on again and it was gone. I have left it on for a few hours now, and it has not happened again. Not sure what that was. 

[waymda]

No tricks getting 2 to be loud that I know of, I have them set the same - I just need to remember to use the right connection so I get signal.

 

A difference from my set-up to Wondo's is I use the PC+ in FRFR mode.

 

I remembered seeing the youtube video below some time ago in which he states he uses one cab with speaker sim with a loud band - I think he says he has the PC+ turned up to about 3/4 but haven't gone back to check.

 

Might be worth watching.

 

 

[Wondo100]

I think I might have figured something out here and it may help point in the direction of what is going on. In the Powercab section on the Helix, it was set to global. When I went to preset, the light was going from green to orange and seemed like what it should be of course, now it is a bit lower in volume, but no clipping indicated. However, now I am wondering what in the global settings would cause this, since I never really did much by way of the global settings other than change XLR outs to line for my studio ins. I am not running the powercab in XLR and am running in L6 Link. If you guys could think of what might need to change in global, that would be a help. I am also wondering now that I have more head room with preset where I should turn it up to get more out of the signal to noise ratio. Do I turn it up on the Helix and leave the powercab at zero, or do I turn up the powercab?

 

Thanks

[rd2rk]

3 hours ago, Wondo100 said:

I think I might have figured something out here and it may help point in the direction of what is going on. In the Powercab section on the Helix, it was set to global. When I went to preset, the light was going from green to orange and seemed like what it should be of course, now it is a bit lower in volume, but no clipping indicated. However, now I am wondering what in the global settings would cause this, since I never really did much by way of the global settings other than change XLR outs to line for my studio ins. I am not running the powercab in XLR and am running in L6 Link. If you guys could think of what might need to change in global, that would be a help. I am also wondering now that I have more head room with preset where I should turn it up to get more out of the signal to noise ratio. Do I turn it up on the Helix and leave the powercab at zero, or do I turn up the powercab?

 

Thanks

 

The Powercab Global settings are not the same as the Helix Global settings. Changing the Helix XLR setting to LINE means that the XLR Outs ON HELIX are set to LINE level.

That will affect EVERY preset that uses the XLR Outs. Since you're using L6 Link with the Powercab, that makes no difference. You don't actually have more headroom with that XLR setting, you're just sending a hotter signal. Your FOH engineer is really the only one who cares about that (in your configuration).

 

With the BIG KNOB maxed or disabled, you're getting UNITY GAIN (0.0db) to the Powercab. That is as it should be. To get MORE you'd crank the level on the Output Block, or the amp Channel setting, but if your LED on the PC is already lighting up the yellow, that won't be helpful.

 

I'm beginning to think that what's going on here is a case of unrealistic expectations. 250 watts into a single 12" speaker is only ever going to be so loud. It will NEVER compete with a dimed 50/100 watt Marshall into one or two 4-12 cabs. If your hard-hitting drummer is pounding a stadium sized kit, and all that is going on in a 12x12 rehearsal space, even two Powercabs will have trouble keeping up! Then again, that won't be a problem for long, as you'll soon be deaf as a stone.....

[Wondo100]

I think the loudness thing is not really an issue. It is getting the input to the PC set correctly so that I only have occasional push into the red now that I took the Global setting off in the Powercab output section of HX Edit. The only other parameters I need to make sure I work with properly is do I add input gain on the PC or leave it at 0 and only then use the output block on the Helix. Also, each speaker in the PC has a volume. It is usually around-18db for most settings. When I turn that up I get more gain as well and it drives the input level on the PC. I think once I figure these things out, I may be well on my way. 

[rd2rk]

The Input Gain settings on the Powercab only matter if you're connecting by 1/4"/XLR to Input 1/2 on Powercab. You're using L6 Link, so the Input gain is (with the BIG KNOB maxed or disabled) whatever the Preset output is, +/- the Output Block Level. So if the Output Block is 0.0db, it's the Preset Output. If you can't get the preset loud enough to trip the LED on Powercab by using gain staging (including the channel level) in the preset (or don't want to for fear of messing up "that perfect preset"), you can use the Output Block Level.

 

The Level setting for the FLAT mode is by default 0.0db, for SPEAKER mode -15db. The purpose being (I think) so that if you switch from a cab/IR to a SPEAKER emulation, there's no volume spike (3rd party IRs are usually set at -18db, Helix Cabs are pre-compensated to 0.0db). If you don't do this (you're always using SPEAKER mode) and want more volume from the Powercab, you can turn up the SPEAKER Mode level as high as +6db. If you want the FLAT mode louder too, you can turn up that Level. If you mix and max, just remember to keep a 15db difference between FLAT and SPEAKER to prevent spikes when switching.

 

Hope that all makes sense.

[HonestOpinion]

1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

The Input Gain settings on the Powercab only matter if you're connecting by 1/4"/XLR to Input 1/2 on Powercab. You're using L6 Link, so the Input gain is (with the BIG KNOB maxed or disabled) whatever the Preset output is, +/- the Output Block Level. So if the Output Block is 0.0db, it's the Preset Output. If you can't get the preset loud enough to trip the LED on Powercab by using gain staging (including the channel level) in the preset (or don't want to for fear of messing up "that perfect preset"), you can use the Output Block Level.

 

The Level setting for the FLAT mode is by default 0.0db, for SPEAKER mode -15db. The purpose being (I think) so that if you switch from a cab/IR to a SPEAKER emulation, there's no volume spike (3rd party IRs are usually set at -18db, Helix Cabs are pre-compensated to 0.0db). If you don't do this (you're always using SPEAKER mode) and want more volume from the Powercab, you can turn up the SPEAKER Mode level as high as +6db. If you want the FLAT mode louder too, you can turn up that Level. If you mix and max, just remember to keep a 15db difference between FLAT and SPEAKER to prevent spikes when switching.

 

Hope that all makes sense.

 

Great writeup!

[rd2rk]

11 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

Great writeup!

 

Thanks! L6 could really use a better manual for the Powercab. Maybe with the (hopefully soon) next Powercab update.....?

[Wondo100]

7 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Thanks! L6 could really use a better manual for the Powercab. Maybe with the (hopefully soon) next Powercab update.....?

Got to save that write up. That is exactly what should be in the manual. And, some of the techs on the customer service hotline could use this too. Thanks!

[Wondo100]

All of that was very helpful. I now have good gain staging set up. Dialed in some FRFR stuff with IRs in the Helix. Used the different FR settings for the PC. Used some IRs for the PC, especially the LRS powercab pack which is good. Got some tones that are pretty usable. However, made the mistake of bringing up my 7CM preset in the Helix into my two Grandmeisters, bypassed all amp models and cabs. Used only effects and routing in the Helix, and sounded so much better. I think my conclusion is that the power cabs are good for using as monitors for your Helix presets. The speaker sims in the PC are nice, but does not take you to that same place as a real amp and cab and if you have great presets in the Helix with internal IRs, PC works best as FR speaker. So, since I have a great set of studio monitors, Yamaha HS7, I will use the Helix modelers and cab sims through the HS7 with my DAW to record and create ambient presets. But, for most of my other guitar playing, I will be going into the Helix in 7CM to my two grandmeisters. That is a much more organic tone. I might actually play out with another ambient player who has had some ambient gigs and if I do, I might just get an FRFR stereo cab for that. I don't think I would use the speaker sims since my ambient presets will all be dialed in with the internal IRs on the Helix. Although, since I have both PCs at this point, I may work with them a bit longer and actually keep them around because they do serve a good purpose. If ever I wanted to get FRFR cabs again, the PCs are probably a really good option. 

[rd2rk]

3 hours ago, Wondo100 said:

I think my conclusion is that the power cabs are good for using as monitors for my Helix presets. The speaker sims in the PC are nice, but does not take me to that same place as my Grandmeister combos and if I have great presets in the Helix with internal IRs, PC works best as FR speaker for me. 

 

There. Fixed it for ya! We all like what we like, and we can't know if we hate broccoli if we don't try it! Kudos for being open minded and doing the chewing! 

[Wondo100]

Thanks man. Think I might keep these a while closer to the return policy end. If I am going to be doing some ambient stuff, I may want something like what the PCs can do, especially with the FRFR option. Obviously I have good studio monitors with the Yamaha HS7, but if I am going to showcase any of the ambient stuff, the PCs would be a better pick for me than my Grandmeisters. I got a good deal on them. $150 off of each of them. If I keep them all hooked in to the Helix, I can switch between Powercabs, Studio Monitors, and 7CM with the Hughes and Kettner and can control everything from the HX Edit. Everything is already all hooked up. Unbelievable that the Helix can do all of this. Just the connectivity of the Helix is worth the price of admission!

[Wondo100]

And rd2k, you are the person that got my 7CM preset working so good. If I hold on to these PCs, I will be running two PC 112s through L6, and two GMs through 7CM, and studio monitors through XLR, and an acoustic amp for my Piezo pickup. This should keep me busy for the rest of my life....

[rd2rk]

5 hours ago, Wondo100 said:

And rd2k, you are the person that got my 7CM preset working so good. If I hold on to these PCs, I will be running two PC 112s through L6, and two GMs through 7CM, and studio monitors through XLR, and an acoustic amp for my Piezo pickup. This should keep me busy for the rest of my life....

 

Check out @RubyTopaz over on TGP. Your rig is starting to sound like his! MONSTER!

[Wondo100]

15 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Check out @RubyTopaz over on TGP. Your rig is starting to sound like his! MONSTER!

Where do I find a link to that rig?

[rd2rk]

If you search his posts on the Line6 Helix thread in the Digital and Modeling forum, you'll find his rig posts, some with videos, going back to the beginning of Helix. He's been through MANY incredible rigs, and he's an AWESOME player. Currently, he's down to using two PC212's. Awaiting video of that rig! Do check it out!