helix output volume Xlr vs 1/4" volume levels

[Newmexican]

Hi, I'm a newbie to this user group and helix. I have a question that someone here can help me with.

I typically have been using xlr into a mixer with the volume set to about 10 o'clock on the helix. If I swap out the xlrs to 1/4"  to my mixer with all settings remaining the same, the volume drops to almost nothing. Both the xlr and the 1/4" are set to line level. So the question, shouldn't the volume remain the same or is this volume drop normal?

[rd2rk]

The XLR Channel strips on a mixer have a preamp, that's usually the top knob on the strip, sometimes labeled TRIM. This allows you to get an optimal signal for whatever you're plugging into it. There's usually an XLR Input for MICs and a 1/4" Input for LINE level signals. There's an LED that indicates an OVERLOAD condition.

 

The first step when setting up the input levels on the board is to pull the channel slider down, then shout (or sing at performance level) into the mic and set the channel input level (TRIM) according to when the overload LED flashes. On my Behringer Xenyx502, when you plug in a MIC, the full counterclockwise level is +10db, and the weaker the MIC signal the more you turn it up to compensate. MAX is +60db.

 

MIC levels are weaker than LINE levels. If you plug a LINE level into the 1/4" on that channel strip, the MIN level is -10db, MAX level is +40db. So, if you plug an XLR in that's set to LINE, you're starting with an INPUT signal that's +10db. If you plug a 1/4" in at LINE level, you're starting at -10db.

 

IOW - 

 

XLR at LINE Level, TRIM at full counterclockwise (MIN), Channel Strip Input Level is +10db.

1/4" at LINE Level, TRIM at full counterclockwise (MIN), Channel Strip Input Level is -10db.

 

Same LINE Level signal from Helix, different Input level at the Channel Strip.

 

This is why, when sending from Helix to FOH, you should disable the BIG KNOB (set it to control something other than the Outputs you're sending to FOH).

That ensures that FOH gets a steady UNITY (0db) signal.

With the BIG KNOB enabled, if you increase the BIG KNOB setting, you could overload the Channel Strip Input, which would make your sound guy very unhappy.

[Newmexican]

Great input, thanks! I will give your suggestios a try. 

[DunedinDragon]

Bear in mind that input levels can vary significantly for different mixing boards depending on how they handle their preamp stages.  Some boards have an automatic compensation on each channel depending on whether you're using 1/4" (which will be assumed to be at Line level) or XLR (which will assumed to be a Mic level).  That's because those are the typical standards in the industry for 1/4" and XLR.  On the Helix you have a choice of signal levels, but I always go with the industry default which is Mic level for XLR and Line level for 1/4".

In my experience across a number of different mixing boards you'll be safest doing what rd2rk said.  Set your XLR output to Mic level and disengage your Helix volume knob from the XLR output in global ins/outs so that it sends the full unity signal at mic level.  This will be consistent with how most other inputs coming into the mixing are handled such as vocal mics or mics being used on cabinets.  You can still manage the output levels inside each of your presets using the channel volume of the amp model or the output block and you can estimate your signal level by selecting the main output block of your preset which will display the presets signal level in the lower right corner of your Helix display which I normally keep at about 60 to 65%.  That will allow anyone working the mixing board to easily gain stage your input signal and all your presets/snapshots will adhere to that consistent level.  Configure your 1/4" outputs to Line level and reserve their usage for going direct to powered speakers which is exactly the same signal level all passive (non amplified) mixing boards use for going to monitors or front of house speakers.

[theElevators]

There are volume levels that you can set on the Helix for all your outputs.  Mic < Instrument < Line.  These are just your volume ranges.  And you can always turn down your signal on the Line level enough so it becomes what the passive Mic level typically is.  

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/whats-the-difference-between-mic-instrument-line-and-speaker-level-signals/#

 

I have XLR outputs at Microphone level.  The volume knob does not control the loudness of the signal, it's always at Mic level.  It goes to Front of the House.  For FOH, you don't want any distortion/compression of your signal, so you set it to the cleanest level.  

 

The 1/4 inch outputs are at Instrument level.  As most people do, I use it as my personal monitor mix.  The volume control is used to make myself louder/softer on stage.  I also apply Global EQ to my personal monitor mix as needed.  On a big Marshall cabinet, I have to dial out the boomy lows.  On a Fender amp's speaker there is no need to do so.  

 

I run the 1/4 out signal into an effects loop of an amp, but recently I favor a stand-alone mini power amp: Mooer Baby Bomb.  The mini power amp is connected to the speaker cabinet directly.  I have had excellent results running it through speakers of a Fender Deluxe or Fender Reverb.  When you run your personal monitor mix on an unbiased power amp, or monitor or whatever it is, there is no need to dime your signal.  I set up my loudness on the amp itself so that the volume knob has room to turn myself up or down.  You know how it is on stage: you start playing a show and realize you can't hear yourself enough, so you just turn yourself up.  The front of the house mix remains unchanged. 

 

If my personal monitor mix does not get loud enough on stage and my volume knob is maxed out, then I can change the setting of my output level for 1/4 inch out to be Line.  I have never had to do it.  Usually the knob is turned half-way and there is plenty of volume.  

[Newmexican]

Thanks guys, as soon as I get a chance I will try out/experiment with these suggestions. I wasn't aware that the xlr out put had another level adjustment other than instrument or line level. 

[rd2rk]

15 minutes ago, Newmexican said:

Thanks guys, as soon as I get a chance I will try out/experiment with these suggestions. I wasn't aware that the xlr out put had another level adjustment other than instrument or line level. 

 

Just to be clear - on your Helix, you have PRESET levels - Amp Gain and Master, Channel (overall amp volume), Output Block and whatever FX Levels.

Those are all involved in the gain staging of your presets, which affect your TONE, and the level that reaches the physical outputs.

The physical XLR/1-4" Outputs have MIC/INST/LINE settings. The BIG KNOB is the final output adjustment on HELIX.

The Channel Strip settings I mentioned (TRIM) are on the mixing board, not on Helix.

[Newmexican]

4 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Just to be clear - on your Helix, you have PRESET levels - Amp Gain and Master, Channel (overall amp volume), Output Block and whatever FX Levels.

Those are all involved in the gain staging of your presets, which affect your TONE, and the level that reaches the physical outputs.

The physical XLR/1-4" Outputs have MIC/INST/LINE settings. The BIG KNOB is the final output adjustment on HELIX.

The Channel Strip settings I mentioned (TRIM) are on the mixing board, not on Helix.

 

[Newmexican]

All, thanks again for the useful input.  I made the suggested adjustments to my mixer and changed the global settings on my Helix (xlr to mic level, etc.) and was able to get even volume levels out of my mixer when i switched from xlr to 1/4" helix outputs. So I feel pretty good that my supposed problem has been resolved!