Use Snapshots to Store Delay ms -vs- Tap Tempo Sync?

[VmusicV]

Hi,

  Firstly - thank all of you who answered my Snapshot question on the Merge MIx. It worked.....

 

Now... I have a single stereo delay :::  imma tryin' to set it to use milliseconds (ms) in Snapshot A, and use Tap Tempo time sync (1/4 note) in Snapshot B. There's a little clock icon in the top right corner...however, you can't right click on the clock. 

 

ANY THOUGHTS?

 

Thanks in Advance (Thanks in Advance...... Thanks in Advance)  get it?  Delay?

AJ

 

[datacommando]

6 hours ago, VmusicV said:

ANY THOUGHTS?

Hi,

 

You simply need to work out the 1/4 note in milliseconds based on the tempo, that way you can program all the repeats in milliseconds.

 

It’s a little late at night for me to go through typing out all the arithmetic involved, so I will let you do the “homework”

 

Check this:

https://tuneform.com/tools/time-tempo-bpm-to-milliseconds-ms
 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[VmusicV]

DC.... thanks for the suggestion; HOWEVER..... the delay works two ways

 

a) milliseconds - this is a fixed value no matter what the tap tempo  ::  when I have the delay set this way, I'm using it to 'thicken' the sound'; I set this up front with no intention on changing the value in milliseconds

 

b) based on the tap tempo - this is a relative value based on, well the tap tempo  :: I want the delay to respond based on the speed or slowness or more literally the tempo I "tap" in with my foot on the tap tempo foot switch.   [KEY word is "relative"]

 

I CAN NOT.....figure this out ahead of time, because it's intended to be relative to the tempo that I tap - and not a fixed millisecond value. The delay in "sync" MODE, is just that - it's completely dependent on the tempo you set, and that could change by simply using the tap tempo foot switch to speed up the tempo, or to slow it down.  In "sync" mode, the actual delay in milliseconds will change based on, well the tempo. If I tap a faster tempo, the delay time expressed in milliseconds will be a smaller value in milliseconds (faster or quicker delay time in ms), but if I tap the tempo super slooOOOOOOoow, the delay time expressed in milliseconds will be a larger value (longer or slower delay time in ms). I'd be happy to show the math here if you need convinced.   This assumes I'm keeping the delay sync value the same, and I am keeping it always at a 1/4 note value. Again..... to show the concept of 'relative to the tempo'; 1/4 note of a very fast tempo, in milliseconds is a much smaller numeric value than a 1/4 note of a very, very slooOOOOooow tempo. I did very well in physics in college, but we did more with oscillation and sine waves than tap tempos. 

 

IF.... I intended the tap tempo - to never change, to ALWAYS be set to a constant value (pun intended). Then YES - I could follow your suggestion - knowing the tempo WILL NOT EVER CHANGE, and I could calculate out the delay in milliseconds ahead of time. But the entire reason to set the delay in "sync" MODE, or use the delay relative to the tap tempo; is to be able to adjust the delay by simply changing the tempo via the tap tempo foot switch. 

 

Am I missing something?  

 

SooOOOooo again - can two different snapshots within a single preset, capture delay settings in these two different "MODES" or "WAYS" the delay works?

   Can I set the snapshots such that:

• in Snapshot A - the delay mode is fixed in milliseconds (regardless of the tempo) - and it captures the value in milliseconds (the snapshot captures the "MODE" as being in ms, regardless of the tempo and of course, the value in ms)
• in Snapshot B - the delay mode is in sync mode, or set relative to the tempo - and it captures the note value  (the snapshot captures the "MODE" which is "sync" with the tempo and captures the note value like 1/64th 1/32 or 1/8 or 1/4 or /12 or dotted eighth, etc.)?

I'm guessing within a preset 2 different snapshots can not capture delay settings when the delay is working in the two different modes or ways (once strictly in milliseconds, and another time in "sync" mode where it's relative to the tempo).  BUT.....if there's a clever way to do it, I'd like to know. 

 

Thanks In Advanced.....

Dead Delay in Denver

[theElevators]

I don't understand what the issue is. 

 

1. Use this formula: https://tuneform.com/tools/time-tempo-bpm-to-milliseconds-ms

2. Obtain the desired BPM value for your note.  Save that BPM value in snapshot A.  For example: you want 500 ms for every quarter note.  So you save the tap tempo value of 120 BPM in snapshot A, and select that it's a quarter note.  It's really easy to do in HX Edit: simply type in the desired BPM value, rather than tapping it in, which is not 100% accurate.  Now......Every time you select/re-select that snapshot, it'll be at that value.  Messed up the tap tempo?  - reload the snapshot. 

3. Use the Tap tempo button to change the BPM as you please during your gig.  Drummer decided to speed up?  -tap the Tap tempo button until your new BPM is correct.

4. If you want to go back to your pre-saved BPMs, re-load snapshot A. 

 

This is the way I have my Helix set up: I don't have global Tap tempo value.  The tap tempo is as I saved it in each snapshot.  To change this behavior, touch (don't press) the Tap tempo button and you will see a menu, you can change the setting with the knobs under the screen. 

 

I play in a band that plays to a click, so all our tempos are predetermined.  But if I ever needed to modify my delay time setting, I can tap in the new tempo.  And I can re-load my snapshot in question to go back to the saved tempo.  I use the preset-per-song approach: there are some presets where the delay timing changes, so I have the tempo pre-saved, no need to use the Tap tempo button for me at the gig personally. 

[VmusicV]

 

4 minutes ago, theElevators said:

This is the way I have my Helix setup: I don't have global tap tempo value.  The tap tempo is as I saved it in each snapshot.  To change this behavior, touch the Tap tempo button and you will see a menu.

 

@theElevators

 

I appreciate the post.  REALLY I DO. 

 

I don't think you get it ----  I have NO CLUE what tempo the band plays at. I have NO CONTROL over what tempo the band plays at.  Each time it's a bit different. It's TOTAL IMPROVISATION.   Once the song gets moving.... they do keep the beat rather consistent (which is critical), but I have NO IDEA beforehand what the BPMs will be.  This is a good reason to have a 'tap tempo' - where you can set the tempo on the fly, based on tapping the foot switch. (If you knew ahead of time what the tempo will be then why 'tap it out'; just use a dial or enter the numeric value like 120 BPMs or whatever that tempo value is).  I do not know ahead of time - what tempo the band will play at. 

 

This is why I need a delay in two modes: 

The 2nd mode is 'sync' mode, based on the tempo that I tap. I have no prior knowledge as to what that tempo will be..... I tap along and set the tempo on stage each time, and each time it's a little different. 

 

The 1st mode is constant value millisecond mode - I am just using the delay as a "thickening agent". I just need a CONSTANT value of say 40 - 60ms to "thicken" my sound, and make it sound kind of like 2 or more instruments. This CONSTANT value works regardless of the actual tempo of the song. It doesn't matter how fast or slow the song is; the delay in this mode just makes my instrument sound fuller and thicken. In this mode - I am not after a traditional or easily audible delay sound (like the famous Fripp type sound), in fact with constant values like 40ms, you can't really tell there's a delay there - it just sounds thicker. 

 

I was "hoping" I can use a single delay block and switch the mode (from a constant value in ms, to 'sync' mode where it's relative to the tempo), and not SWITCH the MODE but store the different values for each of the two different modes. Again.... if I want to use the delay more like the traditional delay (Robert Fripp or others) --- I have to change the "mode" to sync with the tap tempo, and then I have to 'set the tempo' real time while the song is playing by using the tap tempo switch, because the tempo is different every time. 

 

If your band decides ahead of time, what the tempo will be, and uses a click track -  AWESOME (really, that's cool). Uh, we aint there yet (the band I play with). It's all "in the moment" - and that's why I love the tap tempo, and use it "in the moment" to set the tempo on my Helix, and then of course - the corresponding delay which is in "sync" mode. 

 

Thanks Again!!

 

[theElevators]

The steps I listed cover that scenario: the thickening consistent delay. And the improvised tap tempo delay. 
 

 

[VmusicV]

@theElevators

 

REALLY??  I am totally baffled how you say "I save the tempo in the snapshot" --  when I told you. I have NO CLUE ahead of time, or put it this way. When the song starts - NOBODY in the band has any idea what the actual BPMs will be. NOBODY KNOWS. It is not until the song starts playing (what I call "in the moment") - that a tempo is actually set. This is why the tap tempo button works so well. The person starting the song, which is not me - sets the tempo, however they feel. Sometimes it's (in the ballpark of) 110, sometimes it's (in the ballpark of) 94 sometimes it's (in the ballpark of) 103, sometimes it's (in the ballpark of) 118,  it changes each and every time we do the song.     There's NO WAY TO KNOW before the song is actually being played what the tempo is.

 

How can you save a tempo value, ahead of time, in a snapshot - when you have NO CLUE what that value (in BPMs) will even be?

 

I appreciate the help, but unless you have some supernatural mystical giftings..... you can not set and a value in BPMs, when you have no idea what that value will be. And you have zero control over how fast or slow a song will be. Maybe there's some magic?

 

 

[codamedia]

21 hours ago, VmusicV said:

Now... I have a single stereo delay :::  imma tryin' to set it to use milliseconds (ms) in Snapshot A, and use Tap Tempo time sync (1/4 note) in Snapshot B. There's a little clock icon in the top right corner...however, you can't right click on the clock. 

ANY THOUGHTS?

 

Snapshots can control the TIME (ms) in milleseconds and it can change the DIVISION (1/4, 1/8, dotted 8th, etc...) in TAP... but it cannot change from MS to TAP. 

The easy solution is to have two delays.... one set to "milleseconds" and one set for "tap tempo". Use snapshots to toggle them on/off as required. 

 

I stumbled on this limitation when I first got my Helix. Line 6 allows almost everything to be controlled by snapshots.... this this not one of them. 
I am 100% positive they didn't do that to anger us.... it just CAN'T be done without a substantial investment in time and resources.

 

50 minutes ago, VmusicV said:

you can not set and a value in BPMs, when you have no idea what that value will be. And you have zero control over how fast or slow a song will be. Maybe there's some magic?

 

I think you are misunderstanding what  @theElevators is trying to explain. his solution is viable, it just take some "pre-planning". 

 

Obviously when you use the MS value you are programming that exact value to be recalled by preset or snapshot. He is explaining how to calculate those values so you can program the same delay via "tempo" and "division". Once calculated... when you click on a preset the delay loads with the proper "Division" and the "TEMPO" is reset so the delay matches the MS Value you would normally set.

 

Since the delay is already set to "division", any time you want to drift from that value, the TAP TEMPO will allow you to change it to whatever speed you require. To load the "millesecond value" to it's exact position again... simply reload the preset and it resets the "tempo". (this can be done per preset, or per snapshot if you want)

 

For this to work... change the "Tempo Select" in "Global Settings > MIDI Tempo" to the following....

Per Preset = The Tempo is stored and recalled with each preset

Per Snapshot = The Tempo is stored and recalled with each snapshot

Global = This will NOT work with "theElevators" solution. 

[theElevators]

let me try one more time: 

 

[datacommando]

2 hours ago, VmusicV said:

REALLY??  I am totally baffled how you say "I save the tempo in the snapshot" --  when I told you. I have NO CLUE ahead of time, or put it this way. When the song starts - NOBODY in the band has any idea what the actual BPMs will be. NOBODY KNOWS.

 

You must become a "Time Lord" - all music is time. Simple!

 

I told you in my first post that it is all down to arithmetic and gave you the link that would provide a way of doing most of the hard work for you. 

 

"theElevators" has even provided a video that explains how this works. As was stated in the video, if you specify the Snapshot time as 500ms that's fine, you simply need to realise that at 120BPM, 500ms equates to 1/4 note. If you them TAP 100BPM the delay will become 600ms which is the same as 1/4note at that tempo. Likewise if you swap to 125BPM then the 1/4 note delay time is 480ms. Easy eh?

 

You say "the delay works two ways" -  No! it has 2 ways of showing divisions of time  - Everything is based in time, that's the way it always has worked!

 

[codamedia]

 

57 minutes ago, theElevators said:

let me try one more time: 

 

 

@VmusicV  This info was not in the video provided, but it is important. 

 

"Global Settings > MIDI/Tempo > Tempo Select" must be set to "Per Snapshot" or at least "Per Preset" for this to work. You cannot have it set to "global". 

[theElevators]

7 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

 

@VmusicV  This info was not in the video provided, but it is important. 

 

"Global Settings > MIDI/Tempo > Tempo Select" must be set to "Per Snapshot" or at least "Per Preset" for this to work. You cannot have it set to "global". 

Also "Global Settings > Preferences" > Snapshot Edits to "Discard", so you don't accidentally wind up making any changes to your snapshots, and can always re-enter the snapshot to revert all changes that could have happened. 

[VmusicV]

@codamedia

 

   WOW.... Thank you for the video

      Well.... FINALLY @ 40 seconds and 41 seconds of the video - you spoke it in plain, simple, easy to understand words. Let me quote you: "you  CAN'T use the same delay block, and specify milliseconds value or (and) use the tap tempo button"

          What you didn't say it here in the video, but it's implied here is that these two different modes or two different uses; one mode being a fixed millisecond value, the other being a relative value based on tempo were HOPEFULLY to be set in two different Snapshots. But ----  just as you said (slightly paraphrased) ---  I CAN'T get the SAME DELAY block to work two different ways..... (or in two different modes) - in two different snapshots.                            if someone would have said that up front; it would have been soOOOooo much clearer. 

 

Now to the second part of the video (from 54 seconds onward)....... which I do, very much appreciate 

    What was confusing before, was that the recommendation to turn milliseconds into a tempo and a note value (like 1/8th or 1/4 or whatever) -- is only being suggested for ONLY ONE of the two use cases (or only one of the two modes), or what I called 'modes' in using the single delay block. 

 

  Let me list the 2 uses or 2 modes for the one delay block

1. [Use or Mode 1] Fixed Time Value (like 40 or 50 ms) ~~~~> it is for THIS usage or this Snapshot - that you're suggesting I change the fixed milliseconds into a relative note value; like 1/4 note - with a specified BPM;  to obtain the same results.....  that is even though I set a tempo in the Snapshot and set a note value, the delay time will always be fixed, as long as I don't change the BPMs or the note value. In the end, I can get the exact same results - a fixed time value for the delay. This is what you demonstrate in the video from about 54 seconds onward. 
2. [Use or Mode 2] A Relative Value :: remember in this use case, I have NO IDEA how fast or slow the song will be. I do not, can not, and will not set the tempo - somebody else in my band sets the tempo (not me); and I have no choice over this. Whatever the tempo is; I want the delay to repeat the notes I play at 1/4 note relative to whatever tempo the song turns out to be. After the song gets going, I will tap that tempo out.  ~~~~~~> for THIS usage; I absolutely CAN NOT use the suggestion in the video. Why?  Because I have NO IDEA what tempo the song will be at, until we are playing it. 

 

PLEASE accept my apologies. For one of the 2 modes, or one of the 2 uses of this one delay block; I certainly can follow your suggestion (change the global setting, go and set the tempo per snapshot) and I'll get a fixed millisecond value of delay.  I didn't understand the suggestion was being made for ONLY for this one use.     You can see my thinking - in the 2nd use or Mode 2 - IF you want me to set the tempo up by the Snapshot Camera, but in fact as I explained over and over, and over and over, and over and over...... for Use 2 or Mode 2, I have no idea what the tempo will be ahead of time.

 

I can follow your suggestion or @theElevators suggestion for Use 1, or mode one :::  for sure I can do that. Obviously that approach won't work for the 2nd use or Mode 2, where I want a delay relative to the tempo; but I have no idea what the tempo is, until the song is actually being played. 

 

Thank you sooOOOooooOO much for your patience, and for the video detailing exactly how to do that. 

[theElevators]

40 minutes ago, VmusicV said:

@codamedia

 

1. [Use or Mode 2] A Relative Value :: remember in this use case, I have NO IDEA how fast or slow the song will be. I do not, can not, and will not set the tempo - somebody else in my band sets the tempo (not me); and I have no choice over this. Whatever the tempo is; I want the delay to repeat the notes I play at 1/4 note relative to whatever tempo the song turns out to be. After the song gets going, I will tap that tempo out.  ~~~~~~> for THIS usage; I absolutely CAN NOT use the suggestion in the video. Why?  Because I have NO IDEA what tempo the song will be at, until we are playing it. 

 

 

You have no idea what the tempo is.  Solution: you START TAPPING THE TEMPO IN.  UNTIL IT BECOMES WHAT YOU NEED.  Follow the drummer.  tap on 1-2-3-4.  seriously

 

Play and while you are playing, tap tap tap your tempo

 

aight.... I'm done with this thread.  Buh-bye. 

[datacommando]

22 hours ago, VmusicV said:

Am I missing something?

Yes! You have no concept of time!

 

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG! 

 

My brain hurts!

 

I’m out of here!

[VmusicV]

That's exactly what a tap tempo does. That's exactly what I said it is. That's EXACTLY what I SAID it is, and what it does.  

 

I DO NOT..... repeat DO NOT know ahead of time what the Beats Per Minute are. 

Someone other than me; starts playing at whatever tempo they want - before they start playing, I do NOT KNOW the BPM..... once they start playing, I use the tap tempo button to tap along with the tempo they are playing at. NOW (not before the song starts, but now that song is playing) I have set my Helix to the BPM that matches (or nearly matches) the tempo of the song. 

 

Dude... I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND what tempo and what a tap tempo is. I've been using it for twenty years. 

 

 

[codamedia]

12 hours ago, VmusicV said:

@codamedia

 

   WOW.... Thank you for the video

 

I didn't post the video... theElevators did. I just quoted it and added a single comment about others steps required. 

 

12 hours ago, VmusicV said:

I CAN'T get the SAME DELAY block to work two different ways..... (or in two different modes) - in two different snapshots.                            if someone would have said that up front; it would have been soOOOooo much clearer. 

 

I did say it in Post #8. Very clearly in the first sentence of my post. Did you miss that? 

 

9 hours ago, VmusicV said:

I DO NOT..... repeat DO NOT know ahead of time what the Beats Per Minute are. 

 

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND..... everyone is giving you the solution to load a preset value which also includes the ability to  tap in any tempo you want.

 

YES - The answer to your problem is in this thread. 

• 1 delay
• Fixed value on preset and/or snapshot load
• Ability to change the delay via "tap tempo" whenever you want. 

Please go read the posts over and over and over until it sinks in! 

 

[datacommando]

3 hours ago, codamedia said:

Please go read the posts over and over and over until it sinks in! 

Sadly, it’s futile! 
 

I don’t think that will happen anytime soon, he seems to be suffering from tunnel vision.

 

Check out his other posts where he is also failing to comprehend some of the Helix functions.

 

EDIT:

I don't understand why bro "VmusicV" wants to make things more complex than they need to be? If, for instance, he is simply wanting to thicken up the sound with a 40ms slap back delay, why not stick in a Double Take block that is probably more suited to the job?

[VmusicV]

Of course....

Check out his other posts where he is also failing to comprehend some of the Helix functions.

 

EDIT:

I don't understand why bro "VmusicV" wants to make things more complex than they need to be? If, for instance, he is simply wanting to thicken up the sound with a 40ms slap back delay, why not stick in a Double Take block that is probably more suited to the job?

 

the Double Take -----  DOES NOT give you exact control over the ms; the Double Take DOES NOT give you exact control over the pitch change in cents

 

Dude..... you truly haven't arrived.   Try to help people instead of bashing them, when you don't have a clue as to what they even need. 

[datacommando]

2 hours ago, VmusicV said:

the Double Take -----  DOES NOT give you exact control over the ms; the Double Take DOES NOT give you exact control over the pitch change in cents

You see, I was correct - it really is an exercise in futility trying to deal with your struggle to comprehend.

 

Your original post specifically states:-

 

“I have a single stereo delay :::  imma tryin' to set it to use milliseconds (ms) in Snapshot A, and use Tap Tempo time sync (1/4 note) in Snapshot B.“

 

You were supplied with the formula to figure out what you were attempting to achieve. You were supplied with a video, but then you failed to correctly identify who posted it. That somewhat proves that for you it’s a case of TLDR.

FYI - You can hit a delay time between of between 42ms and 60ms by setting a tempo between 179 and 124 BPM as a 1/32 note division. Complex, eh? 

 

You also stated:-

 

“The 1st mode is constant value millisecond mode - I am just using the delay as a "thickening agent". I just need a CONSTANT value of say 40 - 60ms to "thicken" my sound, and make it sound kind of like 2 or more instruments.”
 

Mmm… thickening - Yeah, well that usually comes about by adding a short delay with possibly a single repeat and referred to by audio engineers as slapback, doubling or ADT. Well what do you know? Line 6 provided that very thing as an effect named “Double Take”.

 

Now suddenly, and from out of nowhere you mention:- “pitch change in cents”

 

Hello, Earth calling - “Dude..... you truly haven't arrived.”

 

Oh, yeah! As for “Try to help people instead of bashing them”. Well generally- Dude - that’s what I, and many other regular contributors to this forum, have been doing for the past several years since the Helix landed.

 

You’re on your own from here on in cowboy!

 

Bye!