Helix/HX sounds for PA

[kaleidoskope]

Hi everyone!

 

This has certainly been handled here, but the search I made did not bring anything I could uso, here it goes (if there is a thread already treating this subject, please point me in the right direction.

 

I have an Helix Floor, but I guess this can be related to any Helix or HX device: I build my patches at home, though a couple of Yamaha H8 at a decent volume. When I get to the studio or a live gig and I plug the Helix, i does not sound anything near what I am hearing at home. Now, I know I should build the sounds at live volume and preferably through a PA that I will mostly be using. But that is just not possible. Each studio has a different set of PA system and the same goes for live venues. What are the tips and tricks to minimize this diference? Do dual amp setups on the Helix make things even worse? I can always bring my own QSC K10.2 and build my sounds specifically for it, but it kind of defeats a little the whole "plug-and-play", ease of use thing.

 

If this has already been exhaustively debated, just show me where and I'll be happy :))

 

Thank you!!

[codamedia]

Tones will never sound identical from system to system... the trick is just to make them sound really good regardless of what they are on. 

 

This is what I do....

• I use studio monitors at home... not the HS8's, but similar. I prepare my presets at loud volumes, around 90db. 
• I double check the tones on a large set of "consumer grade" speakers at a similar volume. (this simulates a lower quality PA)
• I tweak a little on both sets of speakers until the tone works great on both
• When I go live... my tones just work...
  • They work at the FOH
  • They work in monitors
  • They work in IEM's (when required)
  • They work in my FRFR (when required)

The process is quite similar to how recordings are mixed. Make it sound good everywhere, but don't expect it to sound the same everywhere. 

[theElevators]

There have been several threads about this.  The answer is that your studio monitors are great to dial in your sound at home.  Yes, dual amp setup certainly makes things worse.  Each amp has its own frequencies that can become exaggerated when you least expect it.  If you're not careful you can have really significant volume/tone discrepancies. 

 

Guitar is such an interactive instrument!  You as a musician must have your setup so that the feel / sound is consistent and the same.  Any sort of a speaker colors/distorts your sound in some way -- even FRFR or mixing monitors.  Some physical speaker cabs will completely swallow up your delay tone, some will make it more pronounced.  If you don't hear your familiar delay sound for example, you can start to panic and start picking lighter/heavier.  Not good!

 

To have consistent feel, I recommend picking a piece of stage amplification and sticking with it every time.  I have Mooer Baby Bomb amp that I connect to a speaker of a Fender-type amp -- and it always feels and sounds the same.  Same feel and sound on stage -- same playing.  A lot of times guitarists try to adjust/compensate for what they hear on stage as opposed to what comes through the PA.  So if you are in your happy isolated world on stage, you have one less thing to worry about. 

 

Live there are always additional factors such as:

1. amount of input gain that flattens your sound in terms of volume variation.

2. you can start hearing sub-harmonic frequencies that you never experienced at home or headphones.

3. certain amount of "gating".

4. other things running through the PA that can distort your sound.

5. PA can have a certain frequency response due to blown speakers, worn-in speakers, positioning of the speakers, room resonance.

 

Your sound will always be different at home vs. a big PA -- there is no way to have your sound be identical.  All you can do is to avoid some pitfalls that are well-known:

1. don't have your sound too washy with too much reverb/delay.  When a room has natural ambience, delay can make your sound become just noise.

2. don't have too much gain.  at high volumes, your guitar can start squealing and having uncontrollable feedback inherent to big sound systems.

3. Dial in your basic tone and use variations of that basic tone for everything.  Don't use multiple amps, or different amps for different songs.  This only works for bands with million dollar budgets.

 

 

So in summary: try to have consistency with your gear.  Practice on a loud system to work out all the kinks -- they are always inevitable.  All pro bands rent out a theater and rehearse until they fix everything.  Trial and error is pretty much the only way of doing this....  And if you have a sound guy friend they can also help you with a sound spectrum analyzer. 

 

[DunedinDragon]

Although PA's are all different, the sound is generally consistent if they're using more modern DSP managed speakers which are the ones that dominate the market.  For the last 6 years or so I dial in all my presets at home using a Yamaha DXR12 which gives a pretty solid representation of most modern PA systems, but there are other options that work well also such as QSC K.2 series or Electrovoice ZLX series and many others.  But you want to select the appropriate contour for live performance and place them as if they're PA speakers meaning up at around chest level and given a clearance of around 6 feet or more to allow the sound to blend between the horn and speaker.  I rarely ever have to have to make any adjustments for PA's unless they're much older equipment or are bargain basement powered mixing boards with passive speakers.  In those cases I just bring my own modern powered speaker and place it behind me on stage to fill in the deficiencies of the PA.

One of the problems you can run into with using studio speakers is they're HIGHLY dependent on the positioning of the speakers in the room and the position of the listener to give you a good, thorough representation of the sound.  I have my studio setup with Yamaha HS7's and my live presets tend to work quite well on them, although almost any recorded image is going to require a certain amount of tweaking to get a good recorded mix with the other instruments.

[kaleidoskope]

Ow, Guys! Thank you very much for the kind answers and pointers! I have a QSC K10.2, so I'll just try do use it in studio to make my sounds and see what happens. I was just about to try what I read somewhere, which was to try making the sounds with IEM or good headphones, but that never really made much sense. But I'm ready to try anything because mright now, my sound sucks big time, on the rehearsal PA :D

 

Take care!