catalyst Questions about the FX Loop feature

[d0stenning]

 

Q: whats the situation with the FX Loop feature?

 

does it place the return ...

 

A) before the Catalyst preamp section?

B) in-between the Catalyst preamp and REAL (solid-state, ie sonically neutral) power amp section?

C) in-between the Catalyst preamp and modeled TUBE power amp section ?

[rd2rk]

The REAL (sonically neutral) power amp is not. It's voiced to sound best with all of the pre-amps.

The modeled TUBE power amp section is not. It's voiced to sound best with all of the pre-amps.

There's six pre-amps and ONE power amp.

The FX loop Return is between the selected pre-amp and the power amp.

You can choose to place effects BEFORE the pre-amp (pre) of after (post).

Placing them in the POST position also places them AFTER the FX Loop.

[littlespaceman]

I've posted separately on another thread about this, so I'm glad this conversation is happening here; I have a major problem with the way the FX loop is implemented on the Catalyst, and it's deal breaker for me - the amp will go back, because the FX loop just isn't fit for purpose and this looks like a major ball dropped by Line 6...     ...IF my understanding is right! So I'm happy to stand corrected on all of this :o)

 

The problem I have is that I'm using the FX loop for a looper. However let's say I record a loop using a preset with NO reverb / delay. I then want to solo over that loop with a different preset that does use reverb and delay. But when I do, the reverb and delay is also added to the first loop I recorded, which makes the whole thing sound mushy and is basically unusable.

 

So here goes - my understanding, helped by the explanation above, is;

 

1)The order of things in the amp = EFFECTS (if PRE*) -> PRE-AMP -> FX LOOP -> EFFECTS (if POST*) -> POWER AMP

(* the EFFECTS can be PRE or POST)

 

2) If this is correct then it explains why I get the problem I described above; because when the EFFECTS are post, they are still before the FX LOOP, so any EFFECTS that are turned on in the preset I want to use to solo over the loop will also affect the loop itself. Is this correct?

 

3) One solution would be to place the EFFECTS in the PRE position. But as we know if delay is placed before a distorted pre-amp voice, then what you end up with is mushy and unusable. 

 

4) So the best solution - as implemented on other brand digital amps etc is for the FX LOOP to be last in the chain, except for the POWER AMP. But this is not how the Catalyst is put together. And therefore it is impossible to use it effectively with a looper in the FX LOOP, without the problems I have described above.

 

Is this all correct?? If so I'm sending the amp back, because the only reason I want the FX LOOP is to use a looper, without having to plug the looper in the front end before the PRE-AMP.

 

I await your replies!

[gtrman100]

On 5/27/2022 at 6:10 PM, littlespaceman said:

I've posted separately on another thread about this, so I'm glad this conversation is happening here; I have a major problem with the way the FX loop is implemented on the Catalyst, and it's deal breaker for me - the amp will go back, because the FX loop just isn't fit for purpose and this looks like a major ball dropped by Line 6...     ...IF my understanding is right! So I'm happy to stand corrected on all of this :o)

 

The problem I have is that I'm using the FX loop for a looper. However let's say I record a loop using a preset with NO reverb / delay. I then want to solo over that loop with a different preset that does use reverb and delay. But when I do, the reverb and delay is also added to the first loop I recorded, which makes the whole thing sound mushy and is basically unusable.

 

So here goes - my understanding, helped by the explanation above, is;

 

1)The order of things in the amp = EFFECTS (if PRE*) -> PRE-AMP -> FX LOOP -> EFFECTS (if POST*) -> POWER AMP

(* the EFFECTS can be PRE or POST)

 

2) If this is correct then it explains why I get the problem I described above; because when the EFFECTS are post, they are still before the FX LOOP, so any EFFECTS that are turned on in the preset I want to use to solo over the loop will also affect the loop itself. Is this correct?

 

3) One solution would be to place the EFFECTS in the PRE position. But as we know if delay is placed before a distorted pre-amp voice, then what you end up with is mushy and unusable. 

 

4) So the best solution - as implemented on other brand digital amps etc is for the FX LOOP to be last in the chain, except for the POWER AMP. But this is not how the Catalyst is put together. And therefore it is impossible to use it effectively with a looper in the FX LOOP, without the problems I have described above.

 

Is this all correct?? If so I'm sending the amp back, because the only reason I want the FX LOOP is to use a looper, without having to plug the looper in the front end before the PRE-AMP.

 

I await your replies!

I'm thinking that the problem is not the position of the effects loop, but the way Catalyst defaults when you change presets. I've posted this on TGP. Here's how it works:

1. load preset A- no boost or effects

2. engage boost or effects on preset A

3. switch to preset B (stored with no boost or effects)

4. preset B is loaded WITH BOOST AND/OR EFFECTS! What?!

5. turn off boost and/or effects on preset B

6. switch back to preset A

7. preset A has no boost or effects

This is different than every other modeler I've had. The way is should work is: whatever you save to a preset should be the mode when you return to it from another preset. One presets changes shouldn't effect another presets default status.

I hope they at least make an option to change the default way switching presets work in the next update. It's especially hard because with the two button footswitch you only have the option to switch between A and B presets, and turn on and off boost and/or effects.

 

 

[littlespaceman]

Ok, well that's uncanny - I've just logged in to post questions to Line 6 about to issues with the Catalyst; one of them is this thread about the position of FX Loop, and the other, which I was going to start a separate thread about was going to be - well, exactly what you said; you turn a boost on in a preset, change to another preset that does NOT have the boost on, and the boost remains on from the previous preset. Yep, just like you said, 'WHAT??!'

 

I'll start a thread on this, this surely can't be the intended design - as you say, no other modeller I've ever used does things this way, why when you change to a new preset would you want it to load in a different configuration to the way it was saved? It's totally pointless.

 

Regarding this problem being what causes the problem with the position of the FX loop, unfortunately that's not the solution; when I have a looper playing through the FX Loop of the Catalyst, I am not experiencing the issue where the onboard delay etc affect the loop when I change presets; the loop is also affected when you manually turn on off delay/modulation etc within the same preset, which surely means the problem is that the amp FX Loop is placed BEFORE the onboard effects.

 

CAN WE HAVE SOME INPUT HERE FROM LINE 6 PLEASE? IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A FUTURE FIRMWARE THAT ALLOWS THE USER TO CHANGE THE FX LOOP POSITION (AS FOR EXAMPLE IN THE KATANA AND NEXTONE AMPS) OR IS IT FIXED IN PLACE AND CAN'T BE CHANGED. 

 

This current configuration is problematic for me, and makes it impossible to use this all-in-one amp as an all-in-one amp, if you are using a looper pedal, which I imagine a lot of people will do.

[rd2rk]

On 6/11/2022 at 2:37 PM, littlespaceman said:

CAN WE HAVE SOME INPUT HERE FROM LINE 6 PLEASE?

 

Nobody from L6 hangs out here.

Post a request on Ideascale.

 

 

[Turtlebeach80]

Regarding the fx loop and delay/reverbs options I'd suggest switching off the catalyst fx unless needed and use a looper with an fx loop i use the digitech trio plus bandcreator and i run overdrive/distortion1st then any ither modulation fx after for a better signal chain I've not used the fx loop with a looper with an fx loop on the catalyst or on any amp.. yet ... its always been main input but i will test this out and re post on this thread. ASAP

[littlespaceman]

Well it's taken me ages to work this out, largely because I haven't played with the amp for a while (I find it not as user-friendly as I would like) but I've now worked out the best way to use a Looper pedal in the FX loop and also use the onboard delay, WITHOUT the delay affecting everything you've recorded in your loop and therefore sounding awful.

 

To recap, the problem is

 

1) If you set the on board FX to POST, this places them post the preamp and importantly, post the FX Loop. Unfortunately this means that everything you have recorded on a looper pedal, in the FX loop, is affected by the on board FX when you turn them on...

2)...unless you set the FX to PRE. But have you ever heard delay before a distorted preamp? Sounds horrible.

 

This was always the stumbling block for me; you can't therefore use the onboard FX with an looper in the FX Loop to record a rhythm track, and then solo over the top, if you also want to use the onboard delay.

 

So the solution? Well, it's stupidly simple really - use an external distortion pedal and have the onboard FX set to PRE! This places the drive/boost at the very front of the signal chain, so even when set to PRE the onboard delay is after the distortion, so you don't get the problems of delay-before-distortion. And because you now have the delay BEFORE the looper (in the FX loop) you now don't have the problem of having the delay affecting everything you've recorded on your looper.

 

So, to summarise - it works. Is it ideal? IMHO no, because I still think not being able to choose the position of the FX loop in software is a major limitation, and it seems strange that the only workaround for this issue is to use external boost/drives on an amp that has them built in; but of course you only have limited control over the onboard boost/drives so using an external one is not such a bad option after all perhaps...

[EddieTheTrooper]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:09 AM, littlespaceman said:

Well it's taken me ages to work this out, largely because I haven't played with the amp for a while (I find it not as user-friendly as I would like) but I've now worked out the best way to use a Looper pedal in the FX loop and also use the onboard delay, WITHOUT the delay affecting everything you've recorded in your loop and therefore sounding awful.

 

To recap, the problem is

 

1) If you set the on board FX to POST, this places them post the preamp and importantly, post the FX Loop. Unfortunately this means that everything you have recorded on a looper pedal, in the FX loop, is affected by the on board FX when you turn them on...

2)...unless you set the FX to PRE. But have you ever heard delay before a distorted preamp? Sounds horrible.

 

This was always the stumbling block for me; you can't therefore use the onboard FX with an looper in the FX Loop to record a rhythm track, and then solo over the top, if you also want to use the onboard delay.

 

So the solution? Well, it's stupidly simple really - use an external distortion pedal and have the onboard FX set to PRE! This places the drive/boost at the very front of the signal chain, so even when set to PRE the onboard delay is after the distortion, so you don't get the problems of delay-before-distortion. And because you now have the delay BEFORE the looper (in the FX loop) you now don't have the problem of having the delay affecting everything you've recorded on your looper.

 

So, to summarise - it works. Is it ideal? IMHO no, because I still think not being able to choose the position of the FX loop in software is a major limitation, and it seems strange that the only workaround for this issue is to use external boost/drives on an amp that has them built in; but of course you only have limited control over the onboard boost/drives so using an external one is not such a bad option after all perhaps...

 

I wonder if the problems with FX loop positions can be solved by firmware update or is this amp's construction defect and can't be solved. Seems like major drawback for me :(

[littlespaceman]

I've been asking this question for months; I was then made aware that no-one from Line 6 monitors this forum (seems odd to me that on a Line 6 forum no-one from Line 6 monitors!) so I posted on Idea-Scale. No response from anyone in Line 6, and a few angry replies from people telling me I'm the one with the problem for criticising the Catalyst for what IMHO is a flaw in the design. Not sure why people get so angry about these things but there you go...

[EddieTheTrooper]

Have you tried contacting the support?

[rd2rk]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:17 AM, EddieTheTrooper said:

 

I wonder if the problems with FX loop positions can be solved by firmware update or is this amp's construction defect and can't be solved. Seems like major drawback for me :(

 

On 10/26/2022 at 3:12 AM, littlespaceman said:

I've been asking this question for months; I was then made aware that no-one from Line 6 monitors this forum (seems odd to me that on a Line 6 forum no-one from Line 6 monitors!) so I posted on Idea-Scale. No response from anyone in Line 6, and a few angry replies from people telling me I'm the one with the problem for criticising the Catalyst for what IMHO is a flaw in the design. Not sure why people get so angry about these things but there you go...

 

People are telling you that you're the one with the problem because of your attitude that it's L6's fault that you bought the wrong tool for the job.

They clearly stated in the original marketing campaign that you should NOT attempt to use this amp with 3rd party Loopers placed in the FX Loop.

Oh, wait, they DIDN'T say that! THAT'S why it's THEIR fault! They didn't design it with YOUR specific needs in mind! How short sighted could they be!

 

I'm glad you found a work around, but DUDE! GET OVER YOURSELF!

It is NOT a flaw in the design and L6 is NOT going to redesign the amp to meet your needs. It is exactly what it was intended to be.

Sell the amp and get one that EXACTLY meets your requirements!

 

And FWIW - insulting other forum members by saying we have anger issues when it's YOUR misplaced anger that we're responding to is as silly as blaming L6 for your failure to properly research the product before you bought it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EddieTheTrooper]

On 10/26/2022 at 6:41 PM, rd2rk said:

It is NOT a flaw in the design and L6 is NOT going to redesign the amp to meet your needs. It is exactly what it was intended to be.

Sell the amp and get one that EXACTLY meets your requirements!

 

ok, I really don't understand what are all those nerves for, really. The problem with Line 6 to me is not that they didn't clearly stated that I can't use 3rd party loopers(although they have stated that I can use external pedals without a problem and Cat should handle them) the problem is that line 6 "design" some things, as I understand, completely opposite to what competition did with their amps and didn't inform about that anywhere and I don't see any reason for this. Probably I did bad research before buying, probably that's is true, but I did some, and up to now I wasn't aware of Line 6 strange "design decision" abut how the amp behaves when changing presets(to my it is defect not intention, I don't see any reasons why it works that way, maybe you can tell me) and about the FX loop position, which, once again, as I understand correctly is "designed" in different way than competitors amps. Maybe there are some pros of such design but I don't see any unless you can tell me.
Lastly. I'm asking you friendly, can you explain me without the nerves something that Line 6 IMO never explained anywhere: what this amp is not and what is intended to be? 

[rd2rk]

If you've read my posts about "What's Not in the Pilot's Guide" you know that the Catalyst is not without design flaws.

The functions of the FX Loop are not a design flaw. It just doesn't work the way you want it to.

 

L6 is in no way required to do things the same way as the competition, nor are they required to explain why they didn't.

They are only required to issue a manual (IIRC in 27 languages!) explaining what they DID do.

It is unreasonable to expect a technical documentation writer to anticipate every possible scenario in which a device might be used.

They can only be expected to provide directions for the INTENDED use.

 

Before buying a high-tech device, it is the responsibility of the prospective buyer to perform "due diligence" by downloading and reading whatever manuals and technical documentation is available. If something is not clear re the applicability of the device to the desired outcome, they then contact the manufacturer's pre-sale support service. IOW - call and ask!

 

If, in spite of a buyer's best efforts, it turns out that the device does not serve it's intended application, they either return it or sell it and move on.

In the US most vendors have a 30-45 day no-questions-asked return window.

As I understand it, in some parts of the world the return rules are different, usually more liberal but sometimes non-existent.

If you buy something used from a private source (or there's no return policy) then the rules are different: Caveat Emptor - "Let the buyer beware" - the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made.

 

You, and the other poster with this problem, had ample time both before and after purchase to figure out that the Catalyst was not suitable to the task of using a looper in the FX loop THE WAY YOU WANT TO USE IT. Not that it CAN'T be used, it just can't be used the way you want to use it.

That you didn't return it at that point is on you, NOT on L6. Coming on here and blaming L6 for your mistake is unreasonable.

 

Your inability to accept this is the cause of the "nerves(?)" as you put it.

 

If you have specific questions about how the amp handles presets that are not addressed in my posts re "What's NOT in the Pilot's Guide" I'll be happy to answer them, as I've answered (or attempted to answer) all of your other questions.

[EddieTheTrooper]

I want to try Boss Metal Zone Mt2 with Cat. But what I've learned about this pedal it shouldn't be used as a regular distortion pedal rather then that is should be used as a pre amp. It sounds best in effect loop or directy in to power amp. I never ever used effect loop so far so i will be something new for me. In this video Ola Englund is hooking MT 2 directly in to FX loop of his satan : 

 

But correct me if I'm wrong. He hooked the guitar in to metal zone input and it's output directly in to FX return (no FX send). Am I correct? this is how should I do it?

[rd2rk]

If there's one thing Ola knows, it's what chugs. If chug is what you're after, then you should certainly try this.

Keep in mind though, what made this pedal one of the best selling of all time is not using it like this, it's using it between your guitar and the amp's input.

Don't discount that method because some internet wanker said to.

Try it, you MIGHT like it!

However, this works better with low gain amps than high gain amps. When the pedal came out, that was its purpose, to turn a low gain amp into a high gain amp.

 

 

I would NOT put it in a Helix FX loop. That's a recipe for ugly noise! But hey, don't just take my word for it - try it, you might like it!

[EddieTheTrooper]

OK, so I bought BOSS Mt2. It works fine with Catalyst both in front of an amp and in FX LOOP. What stroke me the most is that it not only sounds different but also the pedal and the knobs behave also much different. I didn't test FX loop much yet but I think it's easier to use that way but also it has much narrower range of sounds to set. Used between the guitar and amp it seems to me much complex to set something but it's more rewarding in wider range of different sounds. The knobs are very sensitive and there are many interactions between them that I don't fully(well to be honest not even partially) understand. When I used it for the first time, set everything to noon and then start playing with the nobs, the sound was terrible, just like many haters report. But after reading some guides and experimenting I already found some nice tones for starting point that already sounds to me better than Cat's hi gain amp, which I don't like the most in this amplifier. Probably I made bad choice purchasing this as a my first pedal ever(maybe better choice for the first time would be some Joyo distortion or something like that- seems much easier to use) but overall I'm happy. I thought it will be worst after reading some haters.
However using Cat with this pedal is becoming more complex right now since I have to made separate clean channel for Metal Zone - which is  mostly flat and not usable as a regular tone since it sounds like crap. So right now if I want to play some heavy riff on Metal Zone with Cat's effect off and then change to some nice clean channel with some effect I have to hit switch on a MT2 to disable it, than hit channel switch on LFS2 to change this flat clean tone to something better and then hit effect switch to turn on effect on my clean channel. That's 3 buttons! My god that's too many for me. I don't know you guys handle this especially with more effects or big pedalboards???  Respect for that, really

[locopico]

Uhhh... Just a thought here cuz I just picked one up on rental to try.  I have the SDRUM pedal for drum beats.  I was just going to put its output into the AUX IN of the catalyst.  That way it's just like putting in a jam track.  Shouldn't have any effects applied, correct?  Could be same solution for a looper pedal.  Seems pretty simple?

[VladoBelo]

On 28. 5. 2022 at 0:10, littlespaceman said:

O tom jsem psal samostatně v jiném vlákně, takže jsem rád, že se tato konverzace odehrává zde; Mám velký problém se způsobem, jakým je FX smyčka implementována na Catalyst, a je to pro mě narušující řešení - zesilovač se vrátí zpět, protože FX smyčka prostě není vhodná pro daný účel a vypadá to, že spadla velká koule. Řádek 6... ... POKUD jsem to pochopil správně! Takže jsem rád, že to všechno opravím :o)

 

Problém, který mám, je, že používám smyčku FX pro looper. Nicméně řekněme, že nahrávám smyčku pomocí předvolby bez reverbu / zpoždění. Pak chci sólo přes tuto smyčku s jinou předvolbou, která používá reverb a delay. Ale když to udělám, do první smyčky, kterou jsem nahrál, se přidá i reverb a delay, díky čemuž to celé zní kašovitě a je to v podstatě nepoužitelné.

 

Takže tady to jde - moje pochopení, napomáhané vysvětlením výše, je;

 

1)Pořadí věcí v zesilovači = EFEKTY (pokud PRE*) -> PRE-AMP -> FX LOOP -> EFEKTY (pokud POST*) -> POWER AMP

(* EFEKTY mohou být PRE nebo POST)

 

2) Pokud je to správné, pak to vysvětluje, proč mám problém, který jsem popsal výše; protože když jsou EFEKTY post, jsou stále před FX SMYČKOU, takže jakékoli EFEKTY, které jsou zapnuté v presetu, který chci použít k sólování přes smyčku, ovlivní i samotnou smyčku. Je to správně?

 

3) Jedním z řešení by bylo umístit EFEKTY do polohy PRE. Ale jak víme, pokud je delay umístěn před zkreslený předzesilovač, pak to, s čím skončíte, je kašovité a nepoužitelné. 

 

4) Nejlepším řešením – implementovaným na digitálních zesilovačích jiných značek atd. je, aby FX LOOP byla poslední v řetězci, kromě POWER AMP. Ale takhle se Catalyst nedává dohromady. A proto je nemožné jej efektivně používat s looperem v FX LOOP, bez problémů, které jsem popsal výše.

 

Je to všechno správně?? Pokud ano, posílám zesilovač zpět, protože jediný důvod, proč chci FX LOOP, je použít looper, aniž bych musel zapojovat looper do přední části před PRE-AMP.

 

Čekám na vaše odpovědi!

Hi, I have the same problem.. did you manage to fix it or is there no new fw? Will it help to connect the distortion between the guitar and the in input of the combo?
And further set the FX for? Thnx Vlado