Anyone else see Midi transmit lag issues from the Helix LT?

[Rikthoven]

Upgraded my Helix LT to the latest firmware recently.  I see that with that latest version when programming in MIDI CC's or Program changes you can now put in a delay of transmission,  default being 0 ms.   I use my Helix to control our light show as well as it's normal use.  I have Midi CC's attached to snapshots for every tune, "Verse", "Chorus, Solo" that sort of thing.   Those MIDI commands are then "Caught" by a laptop running lighting software which in turn changes the light programming.    In running the lights post firmware upgrade, I'm seeing random delays in light switching now.  Before it was super snappy, zero lag at all,  Now there's randomly up to a 500ms delay I'd say.  Before I start forensically combing through software/hardware looking for the source, is this a known issue?  Do I need to say, go in and recreate every command so that the midi delay data is overwritten with zero?  I noticed commands I wrote pre upgrade do not display the delay option, however newly created MIDI commands do offer that option.  

 

Thanks for any help. 

[rd2rk]

Don't have an LT, have Floor and HXS. No MIDI latency at all before or after update.

I use them both to control Powercab settings and Plugins on separate computers.

[codamedia]

On 4/24/2022 at 11:51 PM, Rikthoven said:

Those MIDI commands are then "Caught" by a laptop running lighting software which in turn changes the light programming.   

 

If the laptop is "Windows"... make sure you updated the Helix DRIVERs to make sure they match the firmware. For midi I'm not sure if it will really make a difference, but it can't hurt. Just install the latest version of HX Edit, and make sure the drivers are all checked. 

 

I don't think that applies to a MAC, but I don't  know for sure. 

[Rikthoven]

Thanks for the advice.   I have it connected via midi cable rather than USB.  I do have the drivers updated on the laptop so...it must be something else.   I'll have to hook things up and start doing some testing to see where the latency is coming from.  By the responses thus far it's likely an issue with the laptop rather than the Helix.  Thanks for the the help anyway guys!

[Rikthoven]

Just proved without question that the upgrade from data without Midi "Wait time" to the latest firmware release produces, at least in my case random delays spread out among the patches.  One patch may have 0 wait time consistently,  Another patch may have 500ms delay consistently.  So random meaning it's different from patch to patch. 
 

I took some patches that encountered delays  during the show.

Moved them to a different patch bank.

Tested that the MIDI "wait time" delays still existed.  They did. 

I then went into the Midi commands exhibiting the issue, changed them from the default post upgrade ,"Command" to "Bank/Program Change" and "MIDI CC".

I then specified 0ms "wait time" on the commands.

It is now MIDI triggering right away like it used to consistently with 0ms wait.

 

  It's an upgrade issue, at least in my case.  Each patch has 2 commands on it.  A MIDI CC command to fire the lights.  and Bank/Program change to change the preset on my VE-500 vocal pedal.  I'm going to have to go through the entire show and convert all of the generic post upgrade "Command" statements into actual "MIDI CC" and "Bank/Program changes" specifying 0ms wait time.   I'm not sure how null data wait time is not being treated as 0.  In my case anyway the firmware is producing random "wait times".   I know not a ton of folks use the MIDI commands but Line 6 may want to have devs take a look.   To me it was super evident because the light changes during the show were lagging significantly and I had to compensate by kicking in snapshots early so the light would change near the beat that it should.  Not everyone is going to have something that blatant in their face to indicate when there's a lag.   Without a light flashing in your face, a half second or second lag may not be noticed?  Don't.  Anyway thought I would share.   I will do a full backup before I set out to manually "upgrade" all of my commands.    

[rd2rk]

How Fast is the Average Blink? The Human Eyeblink can last up to... (somatechnology.com)

 

500ms is only a bit longer than it takes to blink. In most applications, most of us wouldn't notice. But I can see where it would be a real problem in your application.

It would be great if you were to document this and bring it to the attention of someone in support, from where it might eventually make it to the engineering level!

[codamedia]

@Rikthoven... that's interesting. I agree it's very strange that a null entry would not "always" default to 0ms and could be as long as a 1/2 second in some presets. I'm not using my Helix MIDI nearly as deep as you are so I haven't encountered such behavior. 

 

When you upgraded... did you follow the full documented procedure? In particular.... 

1. Backup your Helix
2. Update the Helix
3. Perform a factory Reset (< this step often helps with strange issues such as this one)
4. Restore from the backup

Failing that... have you opened a support ticket with Line 6? 

If they are not aware of this problem already, they would likely want to know about it. 

 

Good luck. 

[CraigGT]

I don't think that the upgrade always updated the Wait parameter correctly, I'd try saving a problem patch with a value say 100mS then save it again with 0, see if that solves it.

[Mikemo500]

I don't know when mine started lagging, but it is very annoying.  I set up MIDI commands to switch the channel on my MT15 amp.  The midi is sent to a Voodoo Control Switcher, and the voodoo is plugged into the Footswitch input on the back of the amp.  When I first set it up, it worked great, instant switching with snapshots.    Then at some point, perhaps it was an update.   The amp switches practically a full second after I stomp.  The snapshot switches instantly, but the amp switch lags.  I will try your fix tonight and let you know how it goes.  I was thinking maybe it is the Voodoo switcher, but I hate the idea of having to buy a new one for this reason.  

[Mikemo500]

Ok, so apparently an update added the wait time parameter to midi cc, but it wont show as being there until you go in and toggle away and back again and then, boom, its there.  Without doing this, your old settings have a null value or something, and apparently null is not very fast. Lol. 

[CraigGT]

On 11/12/2022 at 5:21 AM, Mikemo500 said:

Ok, so apparently an update added the wait time parameter to midi cc, but it wont show as being there until you go in and toggle away and back again and then, boom, its there.  Without doing this, your old settings have a null value or something, and apparently null is not very fast. Lol. 

 

That's what I said :-)

 

[DunedinDragon]

All of these anomalies are the reason I transitioned away from trying to use my Helix about three years ago as a MIDI controller to using a dedicated MIDI controller that included controlling my Helix.

I think the Helix as a MIDI controller implementation suffers from it's integration into the snapshot and footswitch paradigm of the Helix which severely limits it's functionality for things like multiple MIDI transactions and various types of MIDI message content types from a single footswitch interaction like what you get with in a dedicated MIDI controller.  For simple things this isn't a problem, but it becomes and major headache when trying to coordinate the action on multiple devices.  In my case I automate all devices including the Helix from a Morningstar MC8 which handles everything perfectly without any problems.