Damper Pedal with the Helix

[mattvollmer]

I'm curious if it's possible to use a damper pedal on the Helix to control parameters? I specifically want to use one to act like a virtual bigsby So I would have it control the pitch parameter on the pitch shifter, lowering the pitch as it's pressed but bringing back to pitch when I release. All of my searches have come up empty so I'm not sure if anyone has tried it yet, but figured I'd ask before I purchase a damper pedal and try it out. It seems like it should work though.

[datacommando]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:55 AM, mattvollmer said:

I'm curious if it's possible to use a damper pedal on the Helix to control parameters? I specifically want to use one to act like a virtual bigsby So I would have it control the pitch parameter on the pitch shifter, lowering the pitch as it's pressed but bringing back to pitch when I release. All of my searches have come up empty so I'm not sure if anyone has tried it yet, but figured I'd ask before I purchase a damper pedal and try it out. It seems like it should work though.

Hi,

 

AFAIK most keyboard damper pedals are a simple switch mechanism, well, at least the one use is - (M-Audio SP-2 - Universal Sustain Pedal). Theoretically, you can switch between 2 pitch states using a momentary switch - try using one of the ones on your Helix, but I think an expression pedal option gives more control.

 

If you want to sweep the pitch parameters of a pitch shift block in your Helix assign an expression pedal to do the job, it’s what they are designed to do. They are not simply ON/OFF, but contain a potentiometer to vary the resistance supplied.

 

You could use your Helix onboard Wha/Vol pedal or add a third external EXP pedal for the job. These are in expensive and will control all your dive bomb pitch wobbles. (M-Audio EX-P - Expression Pedal).

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

[mattvollmer]

I'm aware that I can do it with an expression pedal. The problem with it is I have to physically rock the expression pedal back to get it back to pitch. I'd rather it get back to pitch on its own similar to letting go of a bigsby or whammy bar. The sustain pedal on a piano seems to do this and that's what a damper pedal replicates. But you're telling me that a damper pedal operates more like a switch than a sweep. If that's the case then that would be disappointing. Hopefully there's a pedal out there that can actually do what I want. I know that Bigsby came out with one but it's expensive and the Helix already can replicate the same effect. I just would rather use damper, or something like it, to control the pitch parameter instead of rocking the exp pedal.

[datacommando]

On 3/10/2024 at 6:47 AM, mattvollmer said:

But you're telling me that a damper pedal operates more like a switch than a sweep. If that's the case then that would be disappointing. Hopefully there's a pedal out there that can actually do what I want.

 

I just would rather use damper, or something like it, to control the pitch parameter instead of rocking the exp pedal.

Hi,

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but AFAIK Damper/Sustain pedals for electronic keyboards are usually just a Normally Open (N.O.) momentary switch that are connected to a mono 1/4" phono plug.

 

You might want to investigate using the Poly Pitch function, but it guzzles DSP.

 

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[mattvollmer]

On 3/10/2024 at 8:13 AM, datacommando said:

Hi,

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but AFAIK Damper/Sustain pedals for electronic keyboards are usually just a Normally Open (N.O.) momentary switch that are connected to a mono 1/4" phono plug.

 

 

 

The key word there is "usually." I did more research and saw that some damper pedals are capable of "half damping" which keyboard players like to recreate the sound of only partially pressing down on the sustain pedal for lighter sustain. This capability leads me to believe that it must have different MIDI values based on how far down you are pressed on the damper as opposed to just "on/off." I might just buy one to find out and return it if it doesn't work. It doesn't seem like anyone else has experimented with this yet to give me definite answer.

I haven't experimented with the poly pitch. That's a cool feature but it doesn't seem to give me the control I would want when using it. It also sounds too artificial in the video but that could be because it was set to drop a perfect 5th. I'd probably set it to just a half step or whole step.

[codamedia]

On 3/10/2024 at 3:42 PM, mattvollmer said:

The key word there is "usually." I did more research and saw that some damper pedals are capable of "half damping" which keyboard players like to recreate the sound of only partially pressing down on the sustain pedal for lighter sustain. This capability leads me to believe that it must have different MIDI values based on how far down you are pressed on the damper as opposed to just "on/off." 

 

What damper pedal are you looking at? In my experience, the pedal itself does NOTHING.... the functionality is built into the keyboard or device. SUSTAIN and DAMPER pedals are simple ON/OFF momentary switches which won't do anything on a Helix - although it can be programmed to do something on an HX Stomp. 

 

If you wire a 10K resistor into the damper/sustain pedal... VOILA! The Helix comes alive using it as a 2nd (or 3rd) expression pedal with a fixed value!  You just need to know what you want to control with it. 

 

[datacommando]

On 3/10/2024 at 8:42 PM, mattvollmer said:

This capability leads me to believe that it must have different MIDI values based on how far down you are pressed on the damper as opposed to just "on/off."

The key word here is “MIDI”. That suddenly appeared from nowhere. Have you been reading this?

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/half-damper/

 

The thing that baffles me is why you appear to be set against using a dedicated expression pedal? Then you seem to have dismissed the PolyPitch function without actually trying it. 

[mattvollmer]

I don't actually have a dedicated exp pedal for the pitch parameter, I experimented with the built-in exp pedal but I prefer to keep that for volume only. But in experimenting with pitch, I did think the quality was decent but I wanted it to retract back to pitch when I lifted my foot so it would sound similar to when you would release your hand from a Bigsby arm. Having to rock an exp pedal back doesn't have the same effect as that. I don't know if any company makes an exp pedal controller that always retracts back to the heel position but that would likely work for me.

Your link you provided does say that damper pedals that have half-damping capabilities can send MIDI CCs 0-127. That leads me to believe that it could work.

[DunedinDragon]

I think what you're looking for is some kind of pedal that simulates the pitch wheel on a standard MIDI keyboard but operates as a foot pedal.  If you're not familiar with it, the pitch wheel on a MIDI keyboard always returns to center whether you roll it up or roll it down and you would normally assign it to modulate the pitch of a note or chord up or down, but you can assign it to anything that responds to changes in a MIDI value.  It would seem like there would be something like this on the market, but I couldn't find one.  You might have better luck.

 

You could possible use any kind of MIDI pedalboard such as a Morningstar unit and program that kind of behavior so that pressing and holding the pedal rolls the value up or down and returns to zero when released.  That would be a pretty easy implementation on a Helix.

[datacommando]

On 3/11/2024 at 4:24 AM, mattvollmer said:

That leads me to believe that it could work.

Well, to be quite honest about your quest for a cheap, simple solution to creating this function - if this was a real possibility then Gamechanger Audio would not be asking the the price they do for this product. It is obviously not just a repackaged keyboard “damper/sustain pedal”.

https://gamechangeraudio.com/bigsby-pedal/

 

You might want to try investigating the possibility of using Command Centre to trigger momentary switching with the attack and release functions of pitch shifting options.
 

Maybe time to bite the bullet, and buy the tool to do the job?

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

EDIT:

You said - “But in experimenting with pitch, I did think the quality was decent” 

And so it should be. Did you know that the poly pitch shifting functions of your Helix were created by the same team that had previously worked on, and developed the DigiTech Wammy?

 

Edited March 11, 2024 by datacommando
Added comment

[codamedia]

On 3/10/2024 at 11:24 PM, mattvollmer said:

Your link you provided does say that damper pedals that have half-damping capabilities can send MIDI CCs 0-127. That leads me to believe that it could work.

 

IF you can find one, they are still fixed CC's, not sweeping. It would DROP the pitch, then return it - you will not have control (with foot) at how fast the pitch drops. If the effect you are using in the helix has a way to vary the drop speed, that is your only hope. 

 

I'd recommend buying a spring loaded expression pedal. Also hard to find, but that would give you the control you really require. Or, buy any cheap expression pedal and do this remarkably simple mod. (it doesn't have to be the expensive expression pedal in the video)

 

 

 

 

[mattvollmer]

On 3/10/2024 at 5:51 PM, codamedia said:

 

What damper pedal are you looking at? In my experience, the pedal itself does NOTHING.... the functionality is built into the keyboard or device. SUSTAIN and DAMPER pedals are simple ON/OFF momentary switches which won't do anything on a Helix - although it can be programmed to do something on an HX Stomp. 

 

If you wire a 10K resistor into the damper/sustain pedal... VOILA! The Helix comes alive using it as a 2nd (or 3rd) expression pedal with a fixed value!  You just need to know what you want to control with it. 

 

I found quite a few. You just have to use the search terms, "half damper pedal." The Roland DP-10 is an example of one.

[mattvollmer]

On 3/11/2024 at 4:52 AM, DunedinDragon said:

I think what you're looking for is some kind of pedal that simulates the pitch wheel on a standard MIDI keyboard but operates as a foot pedal.  If you're not familiar with it, the pitch wheel on a MIDI keyboard always returns to center whether you roll it up or roll it down and you would normally assign it to modulate the pitch of a note or chord up or down, but you can assign it to anything that responds to changes in a MIDI value.  It would seem like there would be something like this on the market, but I couldn't find one.  You might have better luck.

 

You could possible use any kind of MIDI pedalboard such as a Morningstar unit and program that kind of behavior so that pressing and holding the pedal rolls the value up or down and returns to zero when released.  That would be a pretty easy implementation on a Helix.

Very familiar with pitch wheels. What I want to do is kinda like that but, as stated earlier, I want it to replicate the sound of using a Bigsby or whammy bar. I feel like a damper pedal that can sweep through a parameter would work. I'm also finding that an exp pedal that always retracts back to the heel position would also work and you can easily mod one to do just that. I'll probably try that route first since I'm not certain that I'll find a damper pedal that will do specifically what I want it to do.

[mattvollmer]

On 3/11/2024 at 6:21 AM, datacommando said:

Well, to be quite honest about your quest for a cheap, simple solution to creating this function - if this was a real possibility then Gamechanger Audio would not be asking the the price they do for this product. It is obviously not just a repackaged keyboard “damper/sustain pedal”.

https://gamechangeraudio.com/bigsby-pedal/

 

You might want to try investigating the possibility of using Command Centre to trigger momentary switching with the attack and release functions of pitch shifting options.
 

Maybe time to bite the bullet, and buy the tool to do the job?

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

EDIT:

You said - “But in experimenting with pitch, I did think the quality was decent” 

And so it should be. Did you know that the poly pitch shifting functions of your Helix were created by the same team that had previously worked on, and developed the DigiTech Wammy?

 

The Bigsby pedal is tempting but, as you also acknowledge, the pitch shifting on the Helix is quality. So much so that I feel a retractable exp pedal would do what I'm looking for. So If I can make that work, I'll have saved hundreds by just making the most out of the product I already have. 

[mattvollmer]

On 3/11/2024 at 6:55 AM, codamedia said:

 

IF you can find one, they are still fixed CC's, not sweeping. It would DROP the pitch, then return it - you will not have control (with foot) at how fast the pitch drops. If the effect you are using in the helix has a way to vary the drop speed, that is your only hope. 

 

I'd recommend buying a spring loaded expression pedal. Also hard to find, but that would give you the control you really require. Or, buy any cheap expression pedal and do this remarkably simple mod. (it doesn't have to be the expensive expression pedal in the video)

 

 

 

 

That's what I was afraid of if I bought a half damper- that it wouldn't sweep when pressed.
The video you linked to, I actually came across it last night. I think that might be my best route since I already know that an exp pedal can sweep the parameter the way I want it to, I just need it to retract when I lift my foot. I never thought about rigging it up with a rubber band or a cut up bike tube before, but that clearly does work.

[codamedia]

On 3/11/2024 at 10:29 PM, mattvollmer said:

I found quite a few. You just have to use the search terms, "half damper pedal." The Roland DP-10 is an example of one.

 

I was actually wondering what "midi damper pedal" you had found since you had referenced midi values. The DP10 is just a two stage momentary.... that will not work with the Helix, and will only work with specific subset of gear, primarily certain Roland pieces. 

 

On 3/11/2024 at 10:45 PM, mattvollmer said:

The video you linked to, I actually came across it last night. I think that might be my best route since I already know that an exp pedal can sweep the parameter the way I want it to, I just need it to retract when I lift my foot. I never thought about rigging it up with a rubber band or a cut up bike tube before, but that clearly does work.

 

It really will give you the flexibility you are looking for. For a controlled sweep an EXP is required - the trick is merely to get it to return which (with that video) is much easier than I thought it would be. 

[datacommando]

On 3/12/2024 at 3:40 AM, mattvollmer said:

So If I can make that work, I'll have saved hundreds by just making the most out of the product I already have. 

Hi,

 

The Gamechanger pedal has a SHARC audio processor, along with a custom algorithm to allow it to perform it’s Poly Pitch Bigsby style jiggery pokery.
 

So, yesterday using my Helix Floor, I decided to give this a whirl. I set a Poly Pitch block on Path A, and that didn’t really leave enough space for an amp and cab, which I added on Path B, along with a Plate Reverb. I selected the poly block and set it to be controlled by FS1 as a momentary switch with a +1 shift. I then played around with the timings for the shift and return, plus messed with the curve. Yup! That works - up, down up, down etc. I did the same thing by changing the shift to +2, and also -1 and - 2. No problem. The downside of this is you sacrifice one entire DSP and risk breaking a foot switch with constant clicking, plus it it limited to either shifting up or down, not both by travelling through a zero point.

 

Right from the very start of Helix users clamouring for the addition of poly pitch shifting, they were made aware of how much dedicated processing it requires. If you’re willing to lose half of the power of your unit, and subject a foot-switch to intense wear and tear - fine. But consider this, by thinking you may have “saved hundreds”, you possibly risk causing physical damage to your LT, and that could be very expensive-(note: check out some of the many posts from @theElevators regarding LT switches). 

 

You may be better off with a MIDI switcher or even the real GA Bigsby pedal. Another option is to buy a guitar that is fitted with a Bigsby. There are many good reasons that people use dedicated external hardware solutions.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[mattvollmer]

On 3/12/2024 at 6:48 AM, codamedia said:

 

I was actually wondering what "midi damper pedal" you had found since you had referenced midi values. The DP10 is just a two stage momentary.... that will not work with the Helix, and will only work with specific subset of gear, primarily certain Roland pieces. 

 

 

It really will give you the flexibility you are looking for. For a controlled sweep an EXP is required - the trick is merely to get it to return which (with that video) is much easier than I thought it would be. 

Perhaps I misused the term MIDI. I meant that I thought it would sweep the parameters in a similar fashion as an exp pedal as you pressed the pedal downward. I may have made the incorrect assumption that MIDI was utilized to do that. Though another user posted a Sweetwater link that defined half damper pedals sending out MIDI CCs.

[datacommando]

On 3/12/2024 at 2:19 PM, mattvollmer said:

Perhaps I misused the term MIDI. I meant that I thought it would sweep the parameters in a similar fashion as an exp pedal as you pressed the pedal downward. I may have made the incorrect assumption that MIDI was utilized to do that. Though another user posted a Sweetwater link that defined half damper pedals sending out MIDI CCs.

 

As previously stated the key word here is MIDI. It was me that posted the link to Sweetwater that mentioned "Half Damper" pedals, and I asked if you had read that, because you seemed to think this was a solution, when obviously it is not.

 

If anyone had managed to create the same functionality as the Gamechanger Bigsby pedal, by using a mucho cheapo keyboard damper pedal, then YouTube, TGP and the rest of the guitar forums of the interwebs would be alive with the info on how to do it yourself. As you have discovered, this isn't the case and your's would appear to be a futile quest.

 

Buy yourself a copy of "The Big Book of Helix Tricks 1.4" by @craiganderton and read Chapter 4|Poly Block Techniques which seems to cover all available tricks.

 

Hope this helps/make sense, but probably not!

[mattvollmer]

On 3/12/2024 at 10:12 AM, datacommando said:

 

As previously stated the key word here is MIDI. It was me that posted the link to Sweetwater that mentioned "Half Damper" pedals, and I asked if you had read that, because you seemed to think this was a solution, when obviously it is not.

 

If anyone had managed to create the same functionality as the Gamechanger Bigsby pedal, by using a mucho cheapo keyboard damper pedal, then YouTube, TGP and the rest of the guitar forums of the interwebs would be alive with the info on how to do it yourself. As you have discovered, this isn't the case and your's would appear to be a futile quest.

 

Buy yourself a copy of "The Big Book of Helix Tricks 1.4" by @craiganderton and read Chapter 4|Poly Block Techniques which seems to cover all available tricks.

 

Hope this helps/make sense, but probably not!

The reason why I think it will work is because I already experimented with it using the exp pedal and it worked. I just wanted it to automatically go back to pitch when I let go of the pedal. I was thinking a damper pedal would be the way to go, but I already concluded that retractable exp pedal would be my best bet. I just need to get a strong enough elastic band to keep it bouncing back to the heel position but that's 100% attainable.
I have no doubt that the Bigsby pedal would be better quality. If I had disposable income, I'd just purchase that. Unfortunately that's not my situation, but I am confident that what I have planned will work. I've done crazier ideas than this and made them work to my liking.
Believe it or not, this thread has helped me out. It steered me away from the damper pedal idea and onto the DIY-retractable-exp-pedal idea.

[mattvollmer]

UPDATE: I got it to work mostly the way I want it to. I'm using the 'Simple Pitch' block because that uses much less DSP than 'Poly Pitch.' I had a spare Ernie Ball VP Jr that so I hooked up an all 1/4" insert cable from that to the Helix to be used as an EXP 3. I set it to control the 'cents' parameter with the max set to 0 cents at the heel position and the min set to -50 cents at the toe position (I'd prefer to set it even lower than that but that appears to be all that's allowed). I used an elastic wristband to have it always retract back to the heel position.
It actually sounds pretty convincing. Occasionally I'll hear some warble but not nearly as much as I expected. The VP Jr doesn't seem to start the sweep until I'm about at the halfway point though, so that's pretty annoying. I remember it doing that even when used as a volume pedal. I'll have to look up to see if there's a mod to have the sweep start sooner. Otherwise I could just order a cheap exp pedal knowing that this actually works. 

I have no doubt that the Bigsby pedal would be far superior and I may find myself getting one eventually, but for my needs, this will work just fine.