Helix Native - preset change by midi in Reaper

[OrwenDag]

I try to use Native using midi in Reaper, but I can't change presets.

 

The midi track communicates correctly with my track using the FX line 6 native,

I can change the snapshot from 2 to the 6th using the event :
Control change (CC) channel 1; controller 69, value (5)     (and of course using the FX enveloppe snapshot)

 

In the same track, the program change doesn't seem to work. Creating the program event gives me 2 events :
CC Bank Select 14 bit (0/32) value 129
PC bank msb 1 / LSB 1 program number 3

 

Could someone please help me find the correct way to program the preset change ?
For a bonus I would like to do it, either by a event added in reaper, or using a knob or a pad on my midi controller, but I don't know how to set the parameters. 
I already check https://line6.com/support/topic/62426-helix-native-program-change-in-reaper/

Any Idea ?

 

[silverhead]

Here’s a snip from the Helix Native manual from the Plug-in Automation section. I have highlighted the bold underlined text that I think indirectly answers your question.

 

Helix Native supports your host DAW application’s features to read, write, and edit
parameter automation, where the DAW can control the plugin’s parameter values over
time using editable track envelopes. Helix Native takes this concept even further and not
only allows for practically any block’s parameters to be automated but also allows auto-
mating the loading of any of the current preset’s snapshots, which effectively provides
simultaneous switching of numerous Helix Native parameters in one action!

Note that the description includes parameter automation and includes switching snapshots. It omits any mention of preset changes which, by omission, is an indirect statement that automated preset changes are not supported.
 

[rd2rk]

Also:

 

NOTE - AU and AAX Plug-in Formats Only: At this time, remote MIDI control of setlist and preset changes is supported only with the AU (Mac) and Pro Tools AAX (Mac and Windows) Helix Native plug-in formats. It is not supported for the VST2 or VST3 Helix Native plug-in formats on Mac or Windows.
Also note that Setlist and Preset changes performed via MIDI PC/CC messages are not supported by Undo, and will clear the current Undo history - please see “Undo and Redo” on page 27.

 

EDIT: FWIW, I can verify that PC works in Pro Tools. I have the INTRO (FREE!) version, which has track# limits, and will never pay AVID for a SUBSCRIPTION. But then, I don't require what you're needing to do.

[OrwenDag]

@silverhead : First, thank you for your reply. But it is possible to control preset by midi, it is explained p59 of the 3.70 pilot's guide in the part "Setlist, Preset, and Snapshot Recall via MIDI".
 

@rd2rk : I missed that part, I will have to accept it doesn't work on my computer - I won't buy and learn another daw just for this feature to function.
Thanks a lot helping my closing quickly that dead end quest. Until it work with VST3 or Reaper works with AAX hopefully.

[silverhead]

On 8/17/2024 at 10:00 AM, OrwenDag said:

@silverhead : First, thank you for your reply. But it is possible to control preset by midi, it is explained p59 of the 3.70 pilot's guide in the part "Setlist, Preset, and Snapshot Recall via MIDI".

…

Thanks for the correction. I misinterpreted the manual. Sorry for any confusion.

[craiganderton]

Most (all?) VST3 amp sims don't respond to program change messages, but sometimes VST2 versions work as expected. For more information, please check out my article Avoid Frustration with Program Changes and Amp Sims in the library section of craiganderton.org.

[DunedinDragon]

Like you I also use a number of Native Instrument and NI compatible libraries in my DAW.  Personally I found this to be MUCH easier to simply define a MIDI Out track in my DAW (Ableton) which sends single midi automation requests to a Morningstar MC8 MIDI controller foot pedal which is configured with the correct MIDI sequence I want to send to my Helix.  For example, in the MIDI out track of my DAW at the appropriate time in sync with the Ableton project it might send an outbound single MIDI CC to the Morningstar to execute the MIDI sequence on Button 1 which then sends both the PC and CC required by Helix for the change to a specific Helix preset.  I simplify this by having pre-formatted MIDI stems for each MC8 foot pedal I want to have executed and just drop them into the MIDI out track at the appropriate point.  So from my DAW I only see the small MIDI block and can position it wherever I wish.  I have different banks of controls in the MC8 for each song project and that's what allows me to automate the Helix in time with the music.  I've been doing it this way for years of performances and it works flawlessly.

[OmniFace]

@OrwenDag

 

Here's how to do it in Reaper with VST

[rd2rk]

The method posted by @OmniFace(thanks for that, I'd never seen that method) works, BUT...

It's tedious (has to be repeated for each preset) and the preset change takes a full 2 seconds, which, to me, is impractical for live use.

Not that I'd ever want to use Native LIVE - that's what dedicated HW is for.

If I ever needed to do that - Helix sent off for repair? - I'd use the FREE ProTools Intro solution I mentioned above.

It's really NBD to set up, same configuration method - Controller>MIDI Track>Audio/Native track - as any other DAW.

[OmniFace]

On 8/25/2024 at 4:41 PM, rd2rk said:

The method posted by @OmniFace(thanks for that, I'd never seen that method) works, BUT...

It's tedious (has to be repeated for each preset) and the preset change takes a full 2 seconds, which, to me, is impractical for live use.

Not that I'd ever want to use Native LIVE - that's what dedicated HW is for.

If I ever needed to do that - Helix sent off for repair? - I'd use the FREE ProTools Intro solution I mentioned above.

It's really NBD to set up, same configuration method - Controller>MIDI Track>Audio/Native track - as any other DAW.

Yes.  It's definitely annoying, and a lot of work to set up if you have lots of presets.

The delay in preset changes is the same as the hardware, in my experience.  It's certainly not 2 seconds on my PC.  It's more like 250 ms.  If you're seeing 2 second change times I would investigate into some other issue.

 

 

[rd2rk]

On 8/25/2024 at 6:10 PM, OmniFace said:

Yes.  It's definitely annoying, and a lot of work to set up if you have lots of presets.

The delay in preset changes is the same as the hardware, in my experience.  It's certainly not 2 seconds on my PC.  It's more like 250 ms.  If you're seeing 2 second change times I would investigate into some other issue.

 

 

 

 

The 2 seconds I reported was using my HXS as controller on my ancient i5 (office rig).

 

I decided to try using my Helix Floor connected to my i7 (studio rig).

Helix Floor sends Bank Change messages along with the PC#, and this seems to cause the display to behave inconsistently, but presets change much faster.

 

I then dragged out my FCB1010/UNO2 board. This sends ONLY the PC#.

This worked properly and the changes are as fast as the HW Helix/HXS - and nowhere NEAR 250ms, maybe 30-50ms?

 

 

 

 

[OmniFace]

Yeah, it's a small gap. 

I did measure it once and I think you're right that it was closer to 50 ms or something.  I can't really remember.  :)  Still enough to warrant snapshots, but not terrible.

 

I just wish a Helix 2 would be released with more DSP.  Then setting up a single preset to handle clean/distorted tones would go a little more smoothly.

[DunedinDragon]

DSP isn't really an answer here because DSP is all about performing the mathematical transformations used in the process of modeling.  All other functions are performed by normal built in computational functions.  I experienced the same speedup as @rd2rk in MIDI functions when I went from from trying to send them in Helix to sending them from a dedicated MIDI foot controller, in my case a Morningstar MC8.  It makes sense in that the modeling computations will always take priority on a Helix because that's it's main job and must be performed "real time".  Sending MIDI is an additional duty unlike what you get in a dedicated MIDI controller.

[rd2rk]

I think what @OmniFaceis getting at is that more DSP could minimize the NEED for preset changes for those whose presets are currently maxing out their DSP.

[silverhead]

Helix Native has a Hardware Compatibility setting that removes the DSP limits of any Helix device. Then the limitation becomes the power of your computer. Presumably that will allow more stuff in a HN preset.

[rd2rk]

On 8/27/2024 at 11:09 AM, silverhead said:

Helix Native has a Hardware Compatibility setting that removes the DSP limits of any Helix device. Then the limitation becomes the power of your computer. Presumably that will allow more stuff in a HN preset.

 

He's not talking about Native DSP, he's talking about "Helix 2" DSP.

Why Helix should be slower to transmit MIDI to Native from a blank preset (the way I tested) vs using a dedicated MIDI controller makes no sense to me. Neither does the inability to disable the automatic sending of Bank Change messages when using the PC Send Global setting. Of course, being a MIDI Controller is not the primary purpose of Helix, but when you sell the device as "the heart of your studio" those things matter. And the inability to use MIDI PC messages with Native VST2 (VST3 is another matter) which basically says "We're MAC people, screw you Windows users!" is baffling to me. Heads up guys - MOST of us use Windows, and ProTools is NOT the dominant DAW in our market segment, so thanks for AAX compatibility, but we need VST2 compatibility like we have with virtually every other plugin out there! (rant over)

[silverhead]

Thanks for the clarification.