roscoe5

Honestly, I was considering selling the DT50 after my first go round with just Helix pre's. Now I can really see the potential with Helix full amps and DT50 LVM. The MIDI and LVM workarounds are okay for now. I can't wait to see/hear Line 6's real Helix/DT integration. They don't release something until its polished, and I can see how this would be challenging. I've voted up every version of "Helix DT" integration I could find. They can wipe all HD models and re-architecture my DT amp for it for all I care. I dont need DT front panel knobs to control my Helix amps over L6 Link. Come on Line 6, I believe in you!

I used DT Edit to turn off all DT modelling,cabs,and mics as well even for the L6 Link connection. From the Line 6 DT FAQs, DT low-power mode lets the HD modeling technology provide both preamp and power amp tones. You can REALLY hear this when you just run the DT HD amp models into Helix IR blocks, eliminating Helix amps/preamps from the equation (guitar>DT50 guitar input>DT50 XLR out>Helix mic in>IR block>headphones). In the DT XLR out, I can definitely hear just HD full amp models in LVM and more of the the transformer tapped physical DT power amp with a slight mix of HD power amp in full power mode. With Helix preamps into DT full power mode there is something missing, and I believe that something is a slight bit of modeled power amp. Throwing DT into LVM with just Helix preamps sounded horrible. Then I tried Helix full amps and the gears started turning. That's when I realized that the full HD amp models where present and utilized in DT, not just HD preamps. I think the HD modelling architecture allows DT to have level/mix control of the power amp section of the HD models. HD power amp modeling is present in both full power and low power modes in the DT, just at different mix of physical and modeled power amps. LVM raises the mix of the modeled power amp, which was ok for HD modeling at low volume but great for Helix at all volumes. Honestly, the sound of the DT50 power alone with any preamp is very brit el34. It makes sense why Line 6 would mix that with modelled power amps to get more versatility. It almost seemed that within DT alone, 6L6 based HD amps (Mesa, etc.) had more modeled amp mixed with DT power amp than el34 based HD amps (Marshall, etc.). Maybe I'm off base on this and someone from Line 6 can "line" me out, but it sure sounds that way to me.

Hey, heads up on those Crate Power blocks. As the schematic in the Crate manual shows, there are (crappy) cab sims in the 1/4" left/right power amp ins in the back. The RCA CD inputs on the back are the only truly clean unaffected inputs to them. I have confirmed this myself. I currently use one with a 2x12 guitar cab. I actually use Helix amp models with no cabs, connect a stereo 1/4" cable out of the phones out to a 1/4"-RCA Y cable into the CD inputs of the CPB. I split the signal at the end of my patch signal chains with one output set to 1/4" (really its phones out...see below...no cab blocks to stage amp) and the other set to XLR (with cab block to the PA). In the Global settings I have Phones set to monitor 1\4" only so that I can use the Helix Phones knob for stage amp volume and the main Helix Volume knob for XLR to the PA. In can post a Crate Power Block preset with just a simple amp and all of the path splits to Line 6 Custom Tone tomorrow for you.

Ha! Hey, c'mon now...I went on a little posting hiatus last month when the gigs were rolling in ;) Actually had no gigs this month and cancelled rehearsals due to a bandmate's personal obligations, so I went back to the woodshed with Helix to get ready for a few in September. Maybe I'm the minority, but I was REALLY disappointed with Helix preamps into DT50 versus other ways to run Helix full amp models. Plus getting Helix to FOH with only preamp models is almost a dealbreaker. I found that while you can run Helix full amps into DT in full power mode, you could just barely turn the DT volume up before the DT power amp started overpowering the Helix amp models and muddying things up. LPM gives you a wider scale/resolution of adjustability to fine tune the balance between Helix amps and the DT power amp. Now I really need to IR the DT power amp (different topos?)>Mesa 212 to get a perfect IR match to FOH. I guess I can keep those to myself if nobody wants them ;)

Eh, it's a workaround to try to replicate what (I think) DT was doing with the HD amps, both built in and from HD500x. I really think there is a bit of HD power amp modeling that always comes through the DT50 at any volume or LPM mode. It's not just HD preamps in the DT heads.

DT owners, you can run FULL Helix amp models into a DT amp in "low power" mode and get amazing results!!! Consider this Line 6 DT info... What’s low-power mode? Perfect for recording or quieter gigs, low-power mode lets the HD modeling technology provide both preamp and power amp tones. You can perform with all the grit and gain you need without the volume that normally comes with it. DT low power mode doesn't have to be low volume level. Try this... Put DT amp in LPM, Set DT the master volume to about 25-50% Set the output of the end of your Helix signal path to Digital, assuming you are using L6 Link out of Helix to DT. Boost the Digital output level to about +15-20db Pop in a Helix full amp model and ease up the volume knob to about 50%. You can still control DT Class A/AB and Pentode/Triode in LPM if you want to go deeper. You can even control the topo I-IV via MIDI and DT Edit if you really want. The DT Presence control is still active too and influences the power amp. 50-75% up works for me. All of the DT power amp controls do have much less effect in LPM with Helix full amp models, but you do still hear some minor differences between the modes. For Helix XLR to FOH, split the path before the Digital output, put in a cab or IR, set the output of that path to XLR. You can set the headphones to just monitor XLR too for patch creation, etc. In global settings. I believe this is an issue for a lot of DT owners running Helix preamps to DT trying to get a good Helix tone to FOH without Helix power amp models. In DT LPM, There is lot's of room for adjusting the contribution of Helix power amp and the DT power amp to the sound. If you want more Helix power amp, turn up the Digital out and/or Helix volume and turn down the DT master, and vice versa for more DT power amp sound. I will probably never go back to Helix pres-only into DT after this. I've been working with my Helix DT50, Spider Valve HD100, and SS amp all day studying the intricacies and functionalities and comparing tones of each. If you want the gory details and pain of my write up that led to this revelation, go to this thread... http://line6.com/support/topic/22199-helix-and-dt50-hidden-parameters-and-dtsvss-amp-comparison/

Guys, I spent A LOT of time today with the DT50 amp and Helix trying to figure out what was up with the sound of the Helix preamps into the DT50. When I play the DT50 by itself, many of the HD-gen amps were actually sounding better than Helix pres into DT. Especially the 6L6 type high gain amps. There is just much more difference between native HD amp models in the DT than Helix pres into DT power amp. I also recalled that when I had a POD HD500x, I could use full amp models, not just preamps. Additionally, DT50 low volume mode lets the amp models contribute more since the power amp isn't driven as hard. All of this made me suspect that full HD amp models, not just preamp models, are present and contributing to the overall sound in the DT50. I believe the DT/HD architecture was configured to control the amount of HD power amp modelling being passed through between normal and low volume modes. But it does sound to me that some level of HD power amp modelling is always present in the DT50. I believe we lose some of the HD/DT hybrid power amp integration when using just Helix preamps with DT power amp sections. It is definitely apparent when comparing HD/DT50 amps to Helix pres/DT50 power amp into the same IR as I tested below. I ran Guitar In>Helix Path A>Digital Out (L6 Link)>DT50 and DT50 XLR>Helix Mic Input>Path B>IR or Cab block>Headphones. DT cab and mic models were off. I set up three presets 1)Baseline Helix only: Helix Cali Rectifire Amp>Helix IR Block (no DT50 in the chain) 2)Helix +DT50: Helix Cali Rectifire Preamp>DT50 Class AB/IV/Pentode>Helix IR Block 3)DT50 only: DT50 Treadplate with matching topology>Helix IR However, Helix full amps into DT50 are just too much right now. From this testing and experience I realize the challenge it must be to implement the same DT integration with Helix that was present with HD considering the different architecture. I don't think it's as simple as Helix preamps + DT power amp + topo control. If they are to truly make Helix/DT integration comparable to HD/DT, they will need to get some level of Helix power amp modeling through the DT architecture to the speakers for both full power and low power modes, along with topo control. I've concluded that this is why Helix full amp models into the Spider Valve HD100 sound better to me than Helix pres into DT50. Also of note, I ran the SV HD100 send into Helix with the same IR. The models in the SV are definitely full amp models and actually sound really good into an IR. If you are missing the old Line 6 Insane and other models, you could certainly 4CM the SV and get them back in possibly better than original form to FOH with IR's. This was even more reinforcement for my decision to use Helix full amp models into SV effects return. I'm now feeling that some level of the Helix power amp model needs to blend with the DT tube section. I would bet that having a way to control the level/mix of Helix power amp modeling/influence going into SV, DT, or any other tube amp would really be amazing. I think DT/HD had this integrated in its design. Helix Pres are not enough to get the full Helix experience with SV, DT, or other tube amps. Helix full amps are too much for DT, okay with SV, and might be great with the Fryette Power Station (most transparent). I now totally sympathize with Line 6 not having this at launch. They are probably trying to nail it right. And I am very excited about the possibilities of Helix/DT. I would totally be okay with losing all of the DT HD modelling in a DT/Helix firmware update if that's what it takes to get Helix and DT on the same architecture to achieve full integration.

Interesting about the tone neutral speakers. Did Vetta have cab models on and running through the speakers orginally? Anyway, thanks again for the testing and feedback...much appreciated!

Man that's a nice Bongo 6! The Helix is okay too ;)

Awesome!!!!! Did you happen to try it with no Helix cabs or IRs, letting the Vetta celestions be THE cab?

Cool, thanks man.

I finally got around to really digging into my DT50 head. First off, I didn't realize Line 6 didn't have a DT Editor and that I was previously editing my old DT through HD500 Edit, duh. Thanks to a ColonalForbin post, I found the independent dev app. http://rome2.github.io/dtedit/ Second, I didn't realize you have to enable MIDI Thru in Helix global settings to update the DT amps and send DT Edit commands through USB>Helix>DT...duh #2. I found the DT hidden MIDI parameters and Helix really do make a difference. Although I can't say I would even miss them or know what I was missing if they weren't there, like in the DT25. 12AX7 Boost really does drive the power tubes harder, a bit more power tube distortion. Pretty cool to tie this to a MIDI CC and footswitch as a solo boost. PIV B+ Voltage high/low is pretty subtle. I noticed the biggest difference in Class A on the Vox type stuff. Feedback capacitor tight/loose feels about like switching in the Bold and Spongy switch on my Mesa amps. Really impacts high gain palm muted and djent rhythms. I successfully went XLR out DT50>Helix Mic In>2nd path cab/IR>Helix XLR out. This really does give you the DT amp sound to FOH, especially when I used the IR's I created of my own cab. This does take up that 2nd path and limit the effects. I haven't tried to use an XLR>1/4" into a send/return block, maybe that could buy back some space. For the fun of it, I also tried out the DT cab and mic modeling on its XLR out. I almost laughed out loud at the sound of that compared to the HX Cabs in Helix, and of course IR's. BUT there is a 57 off axis mic model in there...hint hint to Line 6 ;) So 3 cables were required, 2x XLR & 1x MIDI. Not too bad IMO. Sadly, even with all of the DT50 topology, class, and hidden parameters...DT50 STILL sounds like I'm playing everything through an EL34 amp. Brit and Chime Helix pre's sound great, Fender cleans are ok, but IMO the 6L6 uber high gain (pre)amps taste funny to me. Now running those non-DT friendly high gain preamps into the 6L6 Spider Valve sounds fantastic! I played around a bit using a Radial VT Headbone switcher with both the DT and SV amps using Helix Ext Amp as a "slingshot" remote controller for it. That was very cool. Definitely over-complicated and excessive as I would hate to have to take 2 heads to a gig and wire it all up. But it was fun nonetheless. IMO, the full Helix amp models into a solid state amp into my 2x12 V30 cab sounds better and is more versatile than Helix preamps into DT or SV into the same cab. You really lose some of the character and tonality of the of the Helix full amp models, as well as the differences between them, when just using the pre's and DT & SV. DT & SV definitely give you more tube amp feel. But you are sort of limited to the sound of their respective power sections. There is much less difference Helix preamp to preamp into DT or SV than Helix amps into SS power amp. But Helix pres into DT/SV do sound great, just not necessarily true to the Helix full amp models. If you are traditionally a Marshall/Vox person, then DT50 is probably for you. If you are normally Fender/Mesa, I would go with Spider Valve. If you want the most versatility, then I would say solid state amp. I have to say (while I watch for flying objects from the forum) from my experiences now with many different configurations that my order of preference for live use is Helix amps>solid state amp>guitar cab Helix preamps>Spider Valve HD100 effects return>guitar cab Helix preamps>DT50 L6 Link>guitar cab Helix preamps>Mesa Mark V effects return (or 4cm)>guitar cab Helix amps+cabs/IR's>FRFR/PA/Monitor speakers At this point, the Fryette Power Station is really intriguing to me as Helix into SS amp could use just a little tube amp feel. It probably wouldnt make much difference to the crowd or the bandmates, but the player could probably feel it. Fryette really sells the transparency and non-coloration of the thing. Videos of it with physical guitar heads AB'ing the head direct and then attenuated through the Power Station are impressive. Helix full amps into Spider Valve sound and feel great as it is pretty neutral, but there is still some slight coloration when compared to just the Helix amp models. I can tell that I would really like this setup if it were truly transparent for the Helix amp models. I would love for Line 6/Bogner to put out something similar/better specific to Helix. My Helix backpack front compartment is begging for it ;)

I emailed Tom at Sweetwater asking if there was a stereo solid state amp similar to the Crate Powerblock, maybe higher quality, that would fit into the Helix backpack. He recommended this little $350 gem. Gears are a turnin..... http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StealthAmp

I think ur2funky here has one and said he didn't care for it at louder volumes. I believe he got a Matrix FR10 too. Maybe Matrix would ship to AU reasonably. The Matrix FR10 and FR12 are $679 and $749 respectively. Super light too. The FR10's are 12" x 12" x 20.5" and 21 lbs, about like large studio monitors. You could get one FR10 now and one later to have stereo at home. http://usa.matrixamplification.com/speakers/fr10.html

Hey Spikey, have you tried Helix amp models, no cabs/IR's, into the stereo returns of the Vetta? Like just using it for the solid state power amp and Celestions? I'm thinking of picking up one of the older Line 6 solid state combos or maybe the HD147 for this purpose and wondering if they will function this way. I could get other brand SS combos, but I might as well represent with Line 6 ;)

Yeah, if your guitar cabs have traditional guitar speakers, Helix amp models without cabs or IR's will probably sound better. Your physical cabs replace the modeled ones logically. I also run a Crate Powerblock into one 2x12 V30 cab with Helix amp models, no cab blocks or IR's. Now you can split the signal right at the end for XLR to the PA and put a cab block or IR in that.

+1 to SD's recommendation I've used the Crate Powerblock on a few gigs with the Mesa cab and Helix now. Fits right in the Helix backpack with room to spare for cables. About $150 on the used market, occasionally $100.

Cool. Sounds like you have some workable gear in your possession already. The Fender amps (hot rods, etc.) do have a good fairly neutral 6L6 power section. I actually ran Helix through a Hot Rod Deville in GC with a friend of mine that worked there. I bet the full amp models will be acceptable to you with only a little coloration. It wont likely be EXACTLY what's going to the FOH, but the difference likely unnoticeable to you, your bandmates or the audience in a live band situation. I went back and forth A-B'ing an obsessively between my Line 6 Spider Valve HD100 (6L6 and very neutral) effects return in, and a solid state amp with Helix full amp models. I feel for the forum members here for fickle blatherings I posted ;) I was convinced and sold on using my tube SV head. I loved the sound coming out and I thought I had the world figured out. Then I split the path into an IR I made of the exact Mesa 2x12 I was using and found that the solid state amp through the 2x12 was MUCH closer to the split path with the IR of the same cab. Plus I finally did realize the SV was coloring a bit, albeit pleasant coloring, and I could hear more of the nuances of the Helix amp models and more of differences between them with a SS amp. Anyway, good tweaking to ya!

So my ear is becoming more finely tuned to the SS amp into a guitar cab rig. I was thinking about the Mesa Walkabout amp again and how its power section does have a slightly better feel than the Crate Powerblock. Of course, the Mesa bass amps have an analog power section vs the digital power section of the CPB. But it also has what Mesa calls Simul-Class power where a 12AX7 drives the MOSFETS. It's not necessarily something I can hear out of the speakers, but I can definitely feel the difference playing the two. Anyway, I'm having fun with it. Still good times with SS amps even after a few weeks with them. I think Line 6 had great concepts in the past mating their modelling with SS power sections with the Vetta, HD147 and others. They attempted to close the gap between real tube amps and modelling with Spider Valve and DT . Now Helix (and other current gen modelers) has brought a new level of realism to a single package and many of us are again looking to solid state power to purely amplify these accurate models, whether it be all-in FRFR or SS amp + guitar cab. I never thought a SS amp would be in my guitar rig again ;)

What kind of amp did you previously use?

Another inexpensive option may be to use a good solid state combo or SS amp+cab. Helix full amp models sound great through effects return of a solid state amp and a good guitar cab. You can really hear the nuances of the Helix amp models while getting the feel of a real guitar cab. You may even have one laying around. If not, a good 1x12 SS combo can be had for $200 or less. The Randall RG series looks appealing to me personally, but there are PLENTY of options out there. This eliminates the coloration you get when running full amp models into a tube amp. It's sort of a hybrid FRFR approach, but without the cab modelling since you would be using an actual guitar speaker/cab. This is the method used by many Fractal and Kemper guys. Also, the new BIAS head and rack with built in 600w SS power amps are intended to run this way. You can get as expensive as you want with Matrix power amps and high end guitar cabs. I am currently running Helix full amp models into a SS amp into a Mesa V30 2x12 cab. I'm still mic'ing the cab, but I had previously successfully split the signal after the Helix full amp model and effects into a separate XLR FOH path with cab blocks/IR's. We have a few places we play where the sound guys just want to mic the cab anyway, so I just went with the flow.

You can take a "keep it simple" approach and just mic the combo at gigs ;) Helix pres into a fender hot rod sound great. You will get some good tips from this group, but it was a long and frustrating path for me, especially when I wanted to make a seemingly small patch change. It became no longer worth it.

I use a Markbass Super Synth in a send/return block. That pretty much rounds it out for me. I recently discovered splitting the signal in to 3 and mixing back together: 1)DI straight bass signal into studio pre 2)DI post amp/pre cab 3)Post mic'd cab I'll post my current Cali Bass prest let up when I get back in front of Helix and a computer.

Oh and good point guys on the Instant Access option. That is essentially assign the MIDI CC to a virtual controller as well. Makes sense. That will help me with the DT50 too :)

Try making sure your MIDI control channels on your Mesa and Helix CC commands are the same.