kylotan

Some suggestions for you, Northerntwang: Focus on one patch at a time. Get it to somewhere you're happy with, then you can compare the next patch's level with this one. Build new patches based on the old ones by copying them and then editing, rather than starting from no blocks at all. A bit of planning in advance can let you build the 'foundation' patches first and then just make slightly tweaked copies of those for other patches. If you aren't already, use the looper to record a phrase and leave that playing while you tweak the dials. This way you're not going back and forth between the unit and the guitar for every adjustment. Consider using stomps or snapshots for similar tones instead of separate patches, if it can work with your usage, as this can reduce the total number of blocks you need to tweak. Don't be afraid to adjust the output level up or down several decibels to suit the amp, desk, or whatever you plug into. If you find most of your amps are too quiet and your volume dial is already up high then a small output boost is probably what you need. I needed a +6dB output on every patch to get the Helix to produce a decent signal level for my amps. ...see if you can work out how to get your Helix showing up as a registered instrument in your Line 6 forum account because apparently several members seem to be getting paranoid that people like you and I are not 'real' Line 6 users.

I agree - and with Revalver, it's possible to pull down the output level from the distortion and have it clean up as we'd expect. With the Helix, that just doesn't work. I guess I'll file a support ticket. Just to be clear, I'm not really interested in the Rat's tone as such, but I'm just trying to find a distortion to add a bit more dirt and high-end to the signal, as I have done successfully with VSTs in the past. But that isn't working in the Helix/Helix Native. I've tried replacing the Rat with the Legacy Heavy Dist (Metalzone), and that's just about usable at 0% drive, especially if I pull the Peavey gain down further.

It used to be quite common for someone from L6 to chime in on issues if they had some insight. Not any more, apparently. Ideascale is a waste of time. It seems clear it's not factoring highly in L6's development. The top voted idea is 3 years old but is still 'in review', but in the meantime we still get a steady stream of new Marshall clones. Other highly-voted ideas are either being ignored or have actually been implemented without anyone coming back to Ideascale to mark it as such.

What is your signal chain? i.e. What guitar and pickups are you using, do you have Pad engaged, which output do you use, and where does that output connect to (on the amp)?

Did you guys forget your tinfoil hats today? I've been a Line 6 user for a decade - Pod XT Live back in 2008, and the Helix Floor unit as of last year. I upgraded from a Boss GT-10 and can't imagine going back to that. The Headrush didn't seem like a good option for my metal-playing ways and I'm not enough of a djent fan to buy an Axe-FX. But, that doesn't mean that the Helix isn't making a godawful mess of certain distortion combinations. I won't be returning my Helix - it works great in 9 out of 10 scenarios for me - but there are some ways in which it just sounds wrong, and hopefully discussing it here will get L6 to look into it and maybe update the firmware.

Okay, I tested Helix Native vs a few other VSTs providing very similar chains: Vermin Dist -> PV Panama (Helix) R47 -> X50 (freeware by TSE) Cat -> Van 51 (Guitar Rig 5) Metal Tone -> Heavy 51 (TH3 by Overloud - not the same distortion pedal modelled, but close) Black Death -> Peavey 6505 (Revalver) All went into the same impulse response, and had broadly the same settings - amp on lead channel, neutral EQ, with about 2 on the postgain, level and gain at half-way on the Rat and filter at zero. What I found was that the TSE freeware and Guitar Rig were decent enough as-is. TH3 started to get the bitcrusher/fuzz effect. Revalver was even worse with this effect, but I could fix it by pulling the Black Death's level down from 5 to about 2.5 with no other effect on tone. The Helix? It was far worse than even Revalver on these settings, and it can't be fixed by pulling the level down on the distortion level - the fuzz stays there but the tone thins out, losing serious bottom end. I've attached the exact same riff played through the 5 chains in this order: TSE, Helix, Guitar Rig, TH3, Revalver. I think it's clear which are the worst ones. And I'd love to hear what Line 6 think of this. DistortionTest(3).mp3

I'm surprised people are immediately jumping to the cabs when the supplied audio file clearly sounds bad, and most likely that was recorded direct rather than him micing up his speaker. It doesn't sound too dissimilar to my problems with the Helix - too much distortion and it starts to break up in unpleasant ways, but since there is barely anything in the way of metering it's hard to work out whether the problem is at the input or somewhere along the chain. To the original poster, I'd recommend posting your patch settings here to see if anyone else can reproduce. Those pickups are supposedly somewhat high-output so I expect the pad is necessary, but since you've already engaged that it's hard to see what more can be done, short of adding extra gain blocks that shouldn't really be necessary.

You probably don't want loop blocks turned on when nothing is connected. The amp block will be amplifying whatever low-level noise is coming in that way - which I would have thought would be pretty minimal in most environments, but not zero.

You probably couldn't have all 4 amp blocks in one patch if you wanted much in the way of other effects, though. Personally, I rely on snapshots, and wouldn't have bought the Helix if it didn't have them. I need 3 or 4 different sounds per song and the preset switching time is far too long to do that during play, so snapshots are essential. I usually have 2 amps in a preset, but I often have 2 distinct settings for one of them (e.g. a clean and a crunch).

Typically, multiple noise gates in series aren't going to make a difference - the one with the most sensitive threshold (i.e. closest to 0dB) is going to kick in and what went before and after don't matter. There are some edge cases with release/attack times and the like, but in general, one gate is enough. I would personally expect to have to set the gate somewhere between -60dB and -40dB for it to be of much use, as someone who plays with high output pickups and high gain tones. My EMGs will be sending well over -60dB if I bump the guitar even a little bit, even with the pad engaged.

At the price I paid, I would like to believe you. ;) However, the video I linked above compares the Helix with the Fractal AX8 unit, and the Fractal there, with a similar chain to the Helix, sounds more like the other VSTs (including the freeware) than the Helix does. Without getting into any sort of manufacturer debate, the AX8 is in the roughly same price bracket as the Helix and Fractal have an arguably better reputation for high gain modelling than Line 6 do. So, while I am very happy with my Helix overall, my hunch is that it is the one in the wrong here. No denying that chaining 2 distortions is going to start to sound like a mess, but the Helix's mess seems to be more fuzzy and 'bitcrushery' than the alternatives. I would be very grateful if you could do that, just that I could get a second opinion on whether this is something I should be requesting a fix for, or whether all the other modellers I have are wrong!

Sorry for taking a few days to reply; I was out of town. The recording I took above was done via Helix Native, so that I could do a decent comparison with the other VSTs I am more familiar with. I used the Hi-Z input on my interface and levels were well below clipping at all times. I have hot pickups but I also have the pad engaged. But I did check the same patch on Helix Floor and noted exactly the same tone issue, so I am assuming it is down to the modelling rather than the input. Additionally, I've used the same signal chain with other VSTs and not needed any other gain correction. roscoe5: I think you're on to something with the "cut only" aspect of the Rat. As you say, with Gain at 5 and Level at 5 it's a lot quieter with it on than bypassed, and I guess that is causing the amp to distort a much weaker - but already very distorted - signal, causing that messy sound. If I push the level up to 10, and pull the gain back to 1.0, then I get something usable. It's a similar story with the Legacy 'Heavy Dist' (MetalZone) - the Output needs to go up to about 50%, but then the Drive needs to be on 5% or even less. So, at least I have something to work with now, so many thanks for that. It does still seem like something is wrong with the gain staging of the Helix however - other distortion VSTs have pretty much unity gain with drive and output around the middle, and therefore when the amp sim is enabled, I have a much wider range of drive levels to play with. But as soon as I mix and match - for example, put the TSE R47 Rat modelling VST before a Helix Native patch with just the amp and cab in, it goes back to being this mess that requires me to pull down the drive on the distortion plugin significantly to the point where there's little room for adjustment, and where I get less of the character of the pedal.

There are basically infinite possibilities there so I'm sticking with the defaults that should work. (Literally, "the Uber 4x12 V30 on default settings" as mentioned in one post above.) But this is not something that would affect the characteristic of the distortion, just the frequency response, but that is not the problem here. I'm talking about the specific fuzzy, 'crunchy' distortion that sounds more like a fuzz pedal than a distortion - cabs don't have that effect (unless your speaker has blown, perhaps)

The noise gate is only really for the gaps between the notes. I'm talking about the very distinct fuzz-like sound during the notes. Fizz is fine, fuzz is not!

I found this video on YouTube where there's a comparison against a Fractal AX8 with a very similar chain, and unfortunately I can hear the distinctive fuzzy break-up in the Helix on some of the patches there, too: It doesn't seem to apply to all of them, so it's obviously not impossible to get usable tones, but it does seem like the Helix prevents stacking of certain chains that other devices - perhaps including the real-world counterparts - do a significantly better job with.

Problem is, it sounds exactly the same on Native, where I don't think impedance is an issue.

Well, the chance of me getting hold of these exact pedals and amps to test everything are very remote - but I've tried several combinations of distortion in front of high gain amps now and the Helix makes a muddy mess of it every time. The freeware VSTs don't do it, Guitar Rig 5 doesn't do it, and even the POD XT didn't do it - I'm forced to conclude that there's either something wrong with the Helix or there's some weird way in which it has to be used to get it to work right. Another example - stick the legacy Heavy Drive (Metal Zone sim, I think) in front of the German Ubersonic, and it starts turning to mush if the output is above about 15%. I've not tried every permutation yet, but it really doesn't seem like there are any distortions in the Helix that play well with high gain amps to give them a little more bite.

Fizz would be fine. I expect that from distortion. What I don't expect is that fuzzy breaking-up sound, or losing all the bottom end when I pull back the distortion output level. I've attached an mp3 of a very similar chain, except using the TSE R47 freeware Rat-simulating VST, and the Emissary amp VST - not identical to what's in the Helix, but quite close. The 3rd repetition of the riff is VERY fizzy, but doesn't break up with the weird crackling effect. And when I dial back the Rat output for the 4th repetition, it cleans up nicely while keeping that top-end bite, like I'd expect - unlike the Helix that loses the bottom end and sounds much quieter and thin. The Helix really does sound broken here - and I'd like to know why! DistortionChainingFreeware.mp3

Bump - has anyone listened to the mp3?

I've heard something much like digital clipping, when the output from an amp was too hot. I doubt it is digital clipping - the signal data is likely to be in floating point form which wouldn't clip in the usual sense of the word - but it's certainly possible to 'overload' blocks without getting any visible warning of it.

I appreciate that sometimes it can be hard to get good tones. I am having problems myself which are in other threads. But you have to decide whether your goal is to complain, or to get help. If your goal is to get help, I suggest you (a) post your Helix chain, and (b) post audio samples. That way, people can give you specific advice.

Here's an audio sample of a simple palm-muted riff through 3 different chains, all going into the Uber 4x12 V30 on default settings: Just PV Panama, drive=4, Ch. Vol=7.5, Master=4. Sounds much like I expect. Just Vermin Dist, gain=5, filter=0, level=8.5 (deliberately high to have volume parity). Again, much like I'd expect. Vermin into PV, with Vermin level down to 5.0 - sounds fuzzy and 'crunchy' (not in a good way). Vermin into PV, with Vermin level down further to 2.0 - still sounds fuzzy but now I lose bottom end. What's going on here? I should be able to put a distortion before an amp and get a bit of extra dirt, without it starting to break up like this, right? I can do it with other VSTs that model very similar units and it sounds good, unlike here. DistortionChaining.mp3

So we have some people in the thread saying, "you can work it all out if you read the manual", and other people saying "there's no point putting things in the manual because nobody will read it". What's it to be? The fact is, there are a LOT of parameters here which deserve better explanation than "just tinker until you're happy". Things like: input impedance that don't seem to work the way people expect but which Line 6 don't explain parameters and settings that a typical musician would rarely, if ever, be able to adjust on the real-world equivalents reverbs with made-up names that don't even relate directly to real-world gear As for instructional videos; they aren't searchable. I've wasted a lot of time watching videos to try and get answers to things, only to find they don't actually cover it. And even if I did get an answer, if I forgot it later, how would I remember which video it was? Most of this should be in the manual. For me, personally, I agree. It got me up and running quite quickly. But I had already had a lot of experience with the XT Live, and a Boss GT-10, and gigging with a 4 cable method for years. A lot of what I learned, I learned from the various manuals, and from asking on forums like this one. Even so, I still had to come on here recently and ask to find out why the volume knob was weird (because it's apparently attenuation-only) and I'm still waiting for decent answers on what the reverbs are supposed to sound like (and whether the bad stereo image is a bug or a feature), or why Helix Native sounds weirdly fuzzy when I try to put a distortion in front of an amp. Now imagine if I were 10 years younger, and instead of starting with the previous units back then, I started with the Helix today. It doesn't explain anything nearly as well as the previous manuals did, and there are a lot more things to potentially go wrong. And the people on the forums seem less inclined to help, if some of the previous replies are anything to go by. I guess that with the increased cost of the Helix relative to previous L6 effects the demographic of the forum has switched from "enthusiasts exploring new tones via digital modelling" to "experts who got tired of carrying their vintage gear around but expect you to be familiar with it all already". Bit of a shame. All I would want, is pretty much exactly what you already said above (before the talk about people being 'responsible' for understanding their tool), so I'll quote you: "For the novice it's not completely obvious what the implications are for building out a system using the Helix. [...] Many of these type of things are [...] aren't necessarily common knowledge for people just getting into this type of stuff. Some form of white paper or talking paper would probably be useful for folks like that so they can make appropriate decisions about how they want to use the Helix". All I am adding to that is that Line 6, as the company supplying the tool and the company best placed to fully understand it, should take on some of that burden and improve their documentation. Give newbies a simple checklist for typical use (FRFR vs. direct to PC/etc vs. front of amp vs. amp return). Explain some of these parameters, especially the esoteric ones.

If I pay over £1000 for a proprietary tool of this level of complexity I expect there to be VERY good documentation for it. What you seem to be missing is that the Helix is especially poor in terms of documentation, compared to the other tools that are and have been available, even from the same company. For example, the POD XT has a 153 page manual. It has several pages on the difference between 'Studio Direct', 'Combo Front', 'Combo PowerAmp', 'Stack Front', 'Stack Poweramp', and gives suggestions on how to use the unit effectively with those settings. Each bundled effect has a write-up explaining what it is modelling. At around the same time I had a Boss GT-10. 156 page manual. Again, it attempted to go into some detail regarding the type of output you might be using. Amp details were sparse but every parameter on every effect was explained. When you highlighted a block it has a meter above it so you can verify the levels are somewhere in the expected range. Fastforward about 10 years, to the Helix 2.0 Owner's Manual. It has 59 pages in it. There is hardly any discussion of different output cases. Each amp and effect is described purely by its name. And unlike the POD XT, the blocks can be moved and rearranged, which mean there are potentially more factors that should be documented, such as what the optimal gain level into each block is - not that we can even see those levels easily, because there is no metering along the chain. Nobody's expecting a Helix to make them into an experienced musician. But it's not unreasonable for the Helix to give a better explanation of its own operation. The promo materials talk about "ease of use", "incredibly easy interaction", and "enabling you to take tones from studio to stage—and back again". Why shouldn't people expect it to work reasonably well without putting in tons of study first? Is a tiny bit of hand-holding for new users too much to ask for? Everyone has to learn somewhere, and not everyone is going to do a tour of analogue gear before they settle on a Helix. So why not have the basics of this in the manual? i.e. Just like the POD XT did. You may have decades of experience behind you, but not everyone else will, or should be expected to.

I tried pushing the master volume up but it doesn't have a noticeable effect. I get the same problem with the PV Panama and all the other high gain amps I tried - fine on their own, but can't handle much other than a screamer in front of them.