Custom Jtv 59 With Bigsby B7

[jstrat1967]

Here's a picture of the floating xtrem I ordered:

 

http://www.guitarfetish.com/zoomify.asp?catalogid=4414&img=assets/images/XTREMFT.jpg

 

If the picture is accurate, this one should work. I'm hoping the angle of the string coming off the bridge helps with tuning stability.

[stevekc]

IMHO you are in for trouble. The Bigsby B7 has that additional roller bar that sits up close to the stock JTV -59 Bridge to minimize the effect of the non speaking string length between the piezo bridge and the tremolo.

 

 

The GFS Xtrem you ordered lacks this crucial roller bar, and the long "non speaking string length" between the bridge and the tailpiece  will result in odd anomalies during DSP alt tuning patches.

 

You should be looking at using the same Bigsby B7  - as this is known to work -after minor mod to the B7 mounting bracket.

 

I removed it, and re-drilled a new mounting hole under the B7's tremolo spring

 

Or try this GFS X-Trem style instead 

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Xtrem-Long-Tail-Archtop-Vibrato-Nickel-Finish-_p_4425.html

 

[anthonylee]

I had very bad experience with Guitarfetish. Once was enough.
Faulty merchandise and they didn't want to replace it.

[jstrat1967]

Stevekc, I may still end up doing the B7. If the floating trem is a problem, I'll stick it on another guitar. Are you pretty satisfied with the tuning stability you have with the B7?

[stevekc]

 

 

Stevekc, I may still end up doing the B7. If the floating trem is a problem, I'll stick it on another guitar. Are you pretty satisfied with the tuning stability you have with the B7? 

 

Yes - but read my entire Tyler JTV-59 Modification thread here:

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9291.0

 

1) Upgraded to GFS Locking Tuners $32 - these are actually from the same Asian supplier that Line 6 uses and bolt right on - 

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Sperzel-Style-Locking-Tuners-3x3-Chrome_p_1172.html

 

2) Replaced the stock JTV-59 Nut with a self lubricated GraphTech Trem Nut 

 

3) When the strings are removed, the stock JTV-59 Bridge saddles have quite  a bit of "slop" and movement - this actually benefits use with the Bigsby B7 as the pivoting bridge moves with the strings and eliminates "creaks" and string sticking noises at the bridge during tremolo use.

 

4) I use Daddario 10-46 strings on my JTV-59, and less than one wrap on the locking tuners and the guitar stays in tune  - same design philosophy as my  2005 Gretsch Brian Setzer 6120 with Bigsby.      

 

[jstrat1967]

Wow, extensive mods. Thanks for the info.

 

Glad to know #3 above. I was wondering whether the saddles had any play. I didn't notice when I changed my strings a couple weeks ago.

[jstrat1967]

Stevekc, you were correct about the Xtrem not fitting right. There is just not enough angle over the saddles to hold the strings in place. And I can't think of another "no drill" method to get a trem on there. So...

 

Bigsby B7 on the way. I'm still a little concerned about how stiff the B7 will be with the steep angle down to the tension bar. If it's too much tension, I'll look into a Tuning Stabilizer:

 

[Charlie_Watt]

That tuning Stabilizer is really nicely done! 

[stevekc]

I have zero tuning instability on my B7 - but i know what I'm doing with Tremolo installs, having once set up SRV's back in 1981 when I worked at Valley Arts Guitar in Studio City, CA 

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=82.0

[jstrat1967]

You think setting up one guitar in 1981 qualifies you to say you "know what you're doing with tremolo installs"? Just kidding!

 

That was a fun read. Fascinating life you've led. Thanks for giving your feedback on my project.

[jstrat1967]

Bigsby sighting over on Harmonycentral:

 

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-130/31111685-custom-line6-jtv-59-new-black

 

Interesting idea to put a 1/4" block at the strap lock. Sounds like the V.Block system.

[jstrat1967]

The B7 came today, and I installed it tonight. Here's how it looks:

 

I loaded a bunch of pictures to this album if you want to see the steps it took

https://picasaweb.google.com/109941283827892756771/JTV59PGoldtopVariax

[radatats]

The B7 came today, and I installed it tonight. Here's how it looks:

 

looks great...

[stevekc]

Fantastic! - and you got the  Bigbsy B7 location correct now, ( requires minor mod to the B7) and matches the same mounting location both my own  JTV-59 with B7, and Anthony Lees'  JTV-59 with B7 as well !   

 

 - I maintain its important to keep the length of string "between the bridge and the Bigsby B7" as short as possible - and you have achieved this here 

 

Good Job! 

 

 

[Charlie_Watt]

It looks to me like the roller is too close to the bridge.  Strings are at a real steep angle.  Does it stay in tune ok?

[stevekc]

 

 

It looks to me like the roller is too close to the bridge.  Strings are at a real steep angle.  Does it stay in tune ok?

 

Stays in tune very well - read all details here:

 

---

 

Yes - but read my entire Tyler JTV-59 Modification thread here:

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9291.0

 

1) Upgraded to GFS Locking Tuners $32 - these are actually from the same Asian supplier that Line 6 uses and bolt right on - 

 

 

2) Replaced the stock JTV-59 Nut with a self lubricated GraphTech Trem Nut 

 

3) When the strings are removed, the stock JTV-59 Bridge saddles have quite  a bit of "slop" and movement - this actually benefits use with the Bigsby B7 as the pivoting bridge moves with the strings and eliminates "creaks" and string sticking noises at the bridge during tremolo use.

 

4) I use Daddario 10-46 strings on my JTV-59, and less than one wrap on the locking tuners and the guitar stays in tune  - same design philosophy as my  2005 Gretsch Brian Setzer 6120 with Bigsby.      

 

 

The benefit of placing the B7 up tight and close to the Tyler JTV-59 piezo bridge is this maintains downward pressure for good Piezo saddle response, and keep the length of string "between the bridge and the Bigsby B7" as short as possible reduces DSP Alt Tuning Anomales, and other strange distortion  issues form the "harp like" overtones if occur if that length of string "between the bridge and the Bigsby B7 is set in vibration. Remember the Piezo saddle can not discriminate between the vibrations of the length of string you want ( Between Bridge and Nut) vs the length of string you DONT want ( between the Bridge and the Bigsby)

 

More here:

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=458.0

[Charlie_Watt]

Good points.  I am glad it is working well for you!

[jstrat1967]

I'm still working the kinks out of mine. Have some nut sauce on the way from Amazon. The locking tuners from GFS are out of stock, so I opted into the waiting list.

 

One key to making this work is that the Bigsby and the JTV bridge cannot be touching. If they touch, then all sorts of creaking and groaning gets transferred through the piezos. That's very bad, I can attest to that. My solution was to loosen the Bigsby and tilt it up, so I could back out the little set screws in the bridge. The set screws adjust the location of the bridge on the posts, front to rear. By backing the set screws out, I was able to slide the bridge toward the neck about 3/32", enough to give a nice gap between the Bigsby and the bridge. I had to move the saddles back and intonate it again, but that was easy enough. It actually looks better this way, will be easier to string (with the little gap), and the creaks and groans are gone.

 

Before and after:

 

 

Now the saddles are at the rear of the bridge, and I have a nice 3/32" gap between the bridge and Bigsby. You can see the set screw now:

 

 

This little adjustment smoothed the feel out a lot. But I know already that I want the Bigsby to be spongier than it is. It's quite tight. So I went ahead and ordered the Biggsfix. This will further reduce the angle of the break in the strings over the saddle, and hopefully give a spongier trem feel.

 

[stevekc]

 

 

One key to making this work is that the Bigsby and the JTV bridge cannot be touching

 

 

Agreed ! -

 

I must be "lucky" because on my 2011 era JTV-59 I see has taller Piezo saddles compared to yours and my strings are NOT touching the bridge base  -my strings only make contact with the B7 Roller and the top of the Piezo Saddle ( not the Bridge Base)  

 

 

that's why its essential to get the B7 installed "centered" ( left / right ) for your specific guitar, so ALL the strings ( including High E and Low E ) are 100% on the B7 Roller bar  - and not touching the   edge of the Bigbsy B7  - 

 

Based upon the pic below  - looks like you have Low E touching more that just the B7 Roller  - and creates drag 

Looks like you might have more work 

 

 

 

 

. But I know already that I want the Bigsby to be spongier than it is. It's quite tight. 

 

Its a matter of taste - Myself I prefer a very tight Bigsby, because this increases sustain  - also  a Bigsby with a Stiff Spring allows you to play country riffs with high G/B/E String Bends while open D/ A / Low E strings remain at pitch  - and not go flat with every string bend .

 

FWIW - GFS Xtrem comes with two types of Springs with different  tensions one "Soft" and one "Hard" - You should be able to use the softer spring from  GFS Xtrem with your B7 if that is what YOU prefer   

[jstrat1967]

I wondered if you would pick up on that E string.   ;)

 

Here's a better angle (I didn't use this one above because it's slightly blurry--call me OCD):

 

 

The trem is centered equally from E to E strings.

 

Interesting that your saddles ride up high enough that your strings don't even touch the bridge. Mine are laying right on it. My saddles also don't have much play at all. You think I would be safe putting a touch of nut sauce on them?

[stevekc]

A very  small amount of Nut Sauce might help.

 

I suppose I'm lucky I have an early 2011 JTV-59 with "sloppy" components  - and tall Piezo saddles that when the strings are removed actually move and rattle around quite a lot! 

 

When it comes to Bigsbys, Ive worked on many and tried all manner of setups - the best Bigsby guitar installs fly in polar opposite to conventional Wisdom for modern guitar setup.

 

 

Side Story:

 

 

In an era of Tone Pro's locked down Bridges , Roller Bridges ( like the Gotoh version in your pic here)  

 

 

 

 

Ive tried them all, and - eventually you learn that a Bigsby  with a pivoting bridge is the correct path

 

Read my "Elantric" post here

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/13160-looking-for-written-detailed-app-info-for-bigsby/

 

 

 

Rather like the Fender JazzMaster, Jaguar, Mustang  - a loose pivoting bridge is key to good "non creaking" tremolo action.  

 

I'm thankful for my sloppy / loose / bridge on my early JTV-59  

[jstrat1967]

I toyed with the idea of using a Bigsby B3 with a Towner Tension bar, like this one, to avoid crowding the bridge, decreasing the break angle, and having an adjustable tension bar:

 

 

I would have needed to install a pair of posts to mount the Towner tension bar. If the B7 doesn't work out, I think that would be my next option.

[stevekc]

If your strings are touching/binding on the Tyler Bridge base, just install washers/shims under the B7 to raise the bar to add more clearance first.

 

Also Avoid 5 wraps of string on the Tuners -  it will return to pitch much better AFTER you install the Locking Tuners - remember to use less than one wrap on the binding post of the Locking Tuner - the whole point is to reduce the length of ALL string length.    

[jstrat1967]

Thanks for the tip on the locking tuner string length. I'll remember that when I finally get them. That's another counter-intuitive step to take.

 

You and I were thinking alike this morning. After I posted above, I left for the hardware store and bought some rubber washers, enough to give me a bunch of lift. I also picked up some better screws...

 

 

I bought #6 metal screws (foreground), for the end bracket. Compare to the three originals to the right, which were stripping out. The big one in the background is a #8 metal screw (I think 1 1/4"), to replace the two screws at the bridge end of the Bigsby. I countersunk all the screw holes in the B7 to accommodate the slightly larger screw heads:

 

 

All the adjusting I've done has changed the location of the endpin screws slightly, so I filled a couple of the holes with toothpicks, which are now drying. You can see them above. Those will soon be redrilled and screwed in. I like the look of the larger screw heads better than the little bulging ones from Bigsby.

 

I stacked two of the washers for each side, raising it probably 1/4", which is quite a lot. Yes! The strings are off the bridge. You can get a good idea of the break angle with this pic:

 

 

 

The tuning stability and sponginess of the B7 are way improved from just two days ago. This works so well that I think I'm going to cancel my order for the Biggsfix, and see if the nut sauce will be enough to get me the last little bit of tuning stability.

 

The P90s play perfectly with the Bigsby, but the piezos are still picking up a bit of creaking. Really got my fingers crossed that the nut sauce will help reduce that. If not, I'll consider raising the B7 even further, to reduce the break angle and string tension even more. I hope I don't need to do that.

 

So there she is. Complete with the shoulder strap my wife gave me for my birthday a couple days ago! Loving this guitar.

 

[Charlie_Watt]

For this to work properly, the bridge needs to rock rather than have the strings moving over the saddles..  I don't think you want the strings moving over the saddles.  That will make noise for sure.

[jstrat1967]

For this to work properly, the bridge needs to rock rather than have the strings moving over the saddles..  I don't think you want the strings moving over the saddles.  That will make noise for sure.

 

I don't know how I would achieve that, if the bridge needs to rock. Maybe the posts could be modded, rounded on the bottom edges or something. I'll cross that "bridge" when I get to it.

 

I would need to look into getting some bridge posts from Line 6, in case I screw them up with the mod.

 

Edit: I have some round wounds that I might try next...

[stevekc]

On my 2011 JTV-59, I remove the strings, and the Bridge Saddles move back and forth with at least  1/16"  inch of travel.

 

When restringing,  I position each of the JTV-59 piezo bridge saddles to the "Center of travel"  on the Tyler Bridge base and when I use the Bigsby, I observe each  Bridge Saddles move, coincident with the string movement on the saddle   - which is good, and avoids the "creaking noise" which would surely occur if my piezo saddles were machined to a tighter tolerance and locked down in place.

 

In other words, a locked down high quality Tone Pro's  / Graphtech Ghost type locking bridge is NOT desirable for any Bigsby install.   

 

Its a "happy accident" that my 2011 JTV-59 Bridge  has slop, rocks , and moves  

[jstrat1967]

Somebody's gotta pave the way with this newer bridge. :)

 

Stepwise, I'll try:

• Nut sauce on the saddles
• Raising the B7
• Lowering the B7
• Flat wounds
• Disassembling the bridge to see about modding it to rock

[stevekc]

Until the Locking tuners arrive - try this restring technique  - remember use less than 1 wrap per tuning post 

[jstrat1967]

Until the Locking tuners arrive - try this restring technique  - remember use less than 1 wrap per tuning post 

 

That's the method I've been using, but I definitely have more than one wrap per post. I'll have to shorten my strings and rewind them. What do you use, about one finger thickness over the nut as a starting point as you wind the string?

 

Last night I took a close look at the bridge to see if it had any play as the trem arm was worked. It actually does rock a little. The saddles don't move much inside the bridge, if at all, but the whole bridge does rock slightly. I don't actually see any string movement or sliding on the saddles--I'm wondering if the creaking I'm hearing is actually from the spring itself. I'm going to put the nylon bushing in under the spring, and maybe put a piece of felt or something on top of the spring. I think I'll hold off on putting nut sauce on the saddles for now to take advantage of the slight rock in the bridge, and see if quieting the spring helps eliminate the creaking sounds coming through the piezos.

 

I also learned something about the "sponginess" of the trem arm while doing some reading last night. The tightness or sponginess of the trem correlates inversely to the tension on the strings. The lower the string tension (lighter strings), the stiffer the trem arm. The higher the string tension (heavier strings), the spongier the trem arm. At first that sounds illogical, but then it makes sense, because the string tension is pulling against the trem arm and balancing it out. I have .010-.046 on it right now, but I have a fresh set of .011-.049s I could put on.

[stevekc]

I use 10-46 daddario.

Yes  - pull the string taught, then  make the right angle bend in Step #1 that is one finger width (17 mm) string length beyond the tuning post  (a bit longer (23mm)  for low E 

 

 

My B7 came with a white nylon Washer that sits under the Spring - to control Creaks and noise

 

 

I also applied small dabs of clear grease  ( like thick Vasoline) to the B7 Roller and all Bigsby moving parts 

http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1289

 

 

 

And I apply liberal amount of Big Bends Nut Sauce under the Strings at the Nut 

http://www.bigbends.com/

[jstrat1967]

My wife just texted to tell me a package for me was delivered this afternoon. She was curious what "nut sauce" is.    ;)

[jstrat1967]

I believe the creaking is directly related to the strings sliding on the saddles. I basically eliminated just about every other possibility. I put the nylon washer in, padded the top of the spring, I even removed the spring and used the trem without it. Finally, I put some nut sauce on the saddles. No matter what, the same creaking can be heard when using the piezos. Without strings, the B7 seems to have fluid, quiet motion.

 

So, I have demonstrated that a fixed bridge with piezos is not a perfect match with a Bigsby. I broke a string last night, so when I take the strings off tonight I'm going to take a closer look at the bridge to see if I can imagine any kind of mod that would allow it to rock. I might take some pics of the posts and inside of the bridge and post them here to ask for some additional perspective or ideas.

 

Regardless of where I'm at with the piezos, the P90s are sure fun to play with the Bigsby. Silent, smooth operation. I ordered a "Soft Touch Spring" from Reverend, to give a slightly spongier feel. I want to try that before I move up to .011's and have to set up the guitar for heavier strings.

 

Steve, thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

[jstrat1967]

I did a little dissection during lunch, to see what's inside the bridge. You can easily see that the stud and bridge have a V-channel. The set screw has a point as well. The net effect of sliding the studs into the channel groove and running the set screw up against the stud, and then stringing the guitar, is to "lock" the bridge in place. There is very little wiggle in the bridge when it's all assembled (and when it's at its lowest setting).

 

By backing the set screws out of the bridge (a few days ago), I basically had the studs seated all the way back into the bridge, so I removed the set screws entirely today, knowing that my intonation will still work that way, in hopes that it would allow some more play in the bridge.

 

 

 

The studs need to be backed way out of the body for the bridge to slide off (to give clearance for the wire harness to clear the body). I noticed that when the studs are backed way out, the bridge has an adequate amount of play, and would actually rock quite well, I think. However, when I run the studs back into the body (alternating one turn on each stud all the way down), the bridge gets increasing tighter as it gets closer to the body. When the studs are fully lowered, the bridge is solid again, even without the set screws, and even when the studs are at the same level. I need to play with it a little more to figure out why that is. Possibly the bushings are not parallel, and as the studs are driven in, they naturally create friction inside the bridge (by being slightly crooked from each other). Not sure yet.

 

 

Sorry if this is boring. I'm documenting my steps for anyone else interested in putting a Bigsby on their JTV59. Hope it's helpful for someone.

 

More to come...

[Charlie_Watt]

This bridge is not designed to rock.  You may have to mod something since once the studs are screwed down to the proper height, they are not going to move.  Since the strings are normally attached to the back of the bridge, they did not want to have any play.  With the Bigsby, the strings are no longer attached to the bridge so you could let it rock but you may have to modify the studs so that they don't lock to the bridge so tightly.

[stevekc]

I have stated before - my own JTV-59 Bridge also does NOT rock or Pivot

 

Instead the actual Piezo saddles move and travel approx 1/16" within the bridge  -  saddles move insync with the minor string movement coincident with movement of the Bigsby B7 Tremolo arm = zero creaking on my guitar 

[jstrat1967]

Well, I have good news tonight. After thinking all afternoon about modding the top of the studs or the bridge, etc., I went home and just started fiddling with the neck on the studs, seeing where it was loose, where it was tight. Remember when I pushed the bridge all the way forward, to give clearance between it and the Bigsby? Well that's when I created my creaking problems. When the bridge is fully seated forward on the studs, it has no give at all. That is its tightest setting.

 

Tonight when I pushed the bridge backward toward the Bigsby, I found that it actually rocked and wiggled on the post. I went back and looked, and every other picture of a Bigsby on a JTV59 that I've seen, the bridge has been pushed farther away from the neck and more toward the Bigsby. So, I made the decision to notch my B7 in order to let me push the bridge all the way back. And guess what, it rocks! It wobbles nicely, front to back. Here's what I ended up with:

 

 

Notice a few things about this pic. The bridge is now pushed back as far as it can go and still give me access to adjust the post with an allen wrench. Secondly, I have notched out the B7, to allow the bridge to go back that far. Third, I have moved the saddles forward again for proper intonation.

 

 

I ran out of .010s, so I decided it was finally time to put the .011s on there. Using the under/over stringing method (less than one turn per peg) and generous amount of nut sauce in the nut, I strung her up, and took her down to the HD500x. Put on earphones, tuned her up, and I could tell immediately, this was the right setup. There is no more creaking(!), the action of the Bigsby is smooth and quiet, the tuning is stable. The .011s have softened up the trem arm nicely, even with the nylon bushing under the spring.

 

So many twists and turns, and the key points of my installation have emerged:

 

--Raise the front of the Bigsby to get the strings up off the bridge and soften the trem action

--Move the bridge back as far as possible to allow maximum rocking of the bridge

--Nut sauce in the nut

--Proper stringing method (under/over, one loop)

--.011s to reduce the tightness of the B7

 

I'm so happy with it at this point, I think my little hijacking of this thread is about finished. I'll still get locking tuners sometime, and I'll try the soft spring when it comes (from Reverend). But at this point, the install is done and commissioned!

 

Again, I really appreciate the comments from both of you guys. I might have been chasing my tail for weeks without your input.

[stevekc]

Congratulations!

 

Just for clarification - 

 

Anthony Lees filed away some of his  Bigsby B7 Aluminum Mounting bracket under the tremolo bar 

 

 

 

 

On My Bigsby B7  - I took the B7 to a metal band saw and sawed off the aluminum mounting bracket completely - to provide lots of clearance for the B7 and not have any part of it come in contact with the Tyler Bridge.  After I cut off the Bigsby mounting bracket, i drilled a new hole directly centered UNDER the Bigsby spring.

 

 

[Charlie_Watt]

That side view looks much better now.  The string angles are much better.  Should work great.  The bridge does not move much when you use the trem but it as something has to give or the strings will drag over the piezos.  That will make noise and it won't return completely to tune either.  Sounds like you have it knocked!

[jstrat1967]

Thanks, guys. I'm a happy camper. The .011s are a nice change, too. My finger tips can tell the difference on the high strings, but bending notes feels pretty similar.

 

Now, to record some music!