Connections on Helix TRS or TS?

[efunkelist]

Are the ¼" jacks on Helix TRS or TS? 

I couldn't find this info in the user manual nor anywhere else. 

 

Thank you very much :)

[PeterHamm]

I think every one is TS, not TRS. in other words, the outputs are only balanced if you use the XLR.

[efunkelist]

That would make sense to my noise-problems with 4CM and a tube-amp. I've got a dual-channel isolator box but would need to have that for every connection if the jacks truly are all TS :/

Now, this is what we THINK, 

 

 

Does anyone know for sure?

[PeterHamm]

The outputs are specified as unbalanced in the manual. The loops are not specified, but it FEELS like it's unbalanced when I plug something into it.

[efunkelist]

Thanks for the info, I didn't find it before.

But this just makes the helix a customer-level product instead of being PROFESSIONAL - atleast in my eyes.

[PeterHamm]

Thanks for the info, I didn't find it before.

But this just makes the helix a customer-level product instead of being PROFESSIONAL - atleast in my eyes.

 

I disagree. It has a balanced input for a mic or what have you, it has an input designed for an electric guitar, it even has an input designed for acoustics and basses with a preamp. Then it has balanced outputs, S/PDIF and AES/EBU digital outputs... Let's not forget about those 4 loops (which other high end processors lack).

 

How is it "customer-level". It is a guitar processor designed and priced for pros with all the I/O those individuals need.

[efunkelist]

When you put it that way, yes, it does very many things and stands out from the rest of the moulinexes around here. I just wish the connections would be TRS so they would resist out interferences better. With the 4CM method atleast I need to have transformer isolators to get rid of noises that are not coming from my guitar. That just sucks. I might have made my judgement on a shallow stand but since all the rest of my gear is on the high end of this specturm I have fallen to blame the newcomer. I'm still working on this but not making much satisfying results.

 

I'm also trying to make money with what I do in my studio. If I don't _need_, I'd very much appreciate, balanced connections, and they lack in helix. That's why I'm not happy.

[PeterHamm]

...I just wish the connections would be TRS so they would resist out interferences better. With the 4CM method atleast I need to have transformer isolators to get rid of noises that are not coming from my guitar...

 

I am pretty sure if the send/return jacks were TRS it wouldn't make any difference, since your guitar amp does not have balanced signals in and out, does it?

 

TRS servo-balanced I/O doesn't inherently solve any problems with unbalanced lines.

[PeterHamm]

I'm also trying to make money with what I do in my studio. If I don't _need_, I'd very much appreciate, balanced connections, and they lack in helix. That's why I'm not happy.

 

Here... you have something... if you were going to use Helix as a general FX processor with a lot of different signals in the studio, I can see that having those be balanced would be useful.

 

But... Helix was designed, as far as I can tell, as a no-compromises guitarist tool, not necessarily a generic studio tool (heck, it doesn't have a stereo input unless you repurpose two of the send/returns or use spdif).

 

I will say that if you use it as an interface in the studio, you can go back and forth to it over USB, and with the rack, you can even sync to a master clock.

 

Again, it's a great guitar processor. I think when you start to make it do things it wasn't necessarily primarily designed for, you are going to make compromises, mostly because NO compromises seem to have been made (within reason) in terms of its primary function.

[jaeger28]

That would make sense to my noise-problems with 4CM and a tube-amp. I've got a dual-channel isolator box but would need to have that for every connection if the jacks truly are all TS :/

Now, this is what we THINK,

 

 

Does anyone know for sure?

No.

 

One some amps you can have a ground loop in 4CM. Symmetric or not doesn't make a difference.

Simply isolate the connection from Helix to Amp front Instrument input. This will break the loop. I use a Lehle P Split, it fixed any issues I had with this.

[fukuri]

The lack of TRS does mean the use of semi balanced cables in 4cm has no effect though?

I remember a post where someone asked about humbuster cables and was roundly shouted down

It's not a massive deal but for the cost of putting them in it might have been smart to do it

[jaeger28]

The lack of TRS does mean the use of semi balanced cables in 4cm has no effect though?

I remember a post where someone asked about humbuster cables and was roundly shouted down

It's not a massive deal but for the cost of putting them in it might have been smart to do it

Humbuster cables work on the FX8 because it's designed for that. Helix has so many ins and outs, it would have been overkill to add a quality iso transformer at every in- and output. Keep in mind any cost in production multiplies by x as a result on end price.

If you take care of the isolation yourself you just need one iso transformer, and you then can get a real good one (Lehle, Radial,...)

I don't think it's an issue. Just spend 30-100 bucks on the iso box and it's fixed. A pair of humbuster cables might even cost you more.

[PeterHamm]

The lack of TRS does mean the use of semi balanced cables in 4cm has no effect though?

 

What is a "semi-balanced" cable? No such thing afaik.

 

And if you connect a TRS cable to a TS jack (like you have on your amp) you could, conceivably, make MORE noise...

[efunkelist]

The "semi-balanced" means the humbusterâ„¢ which is this: 

 

http://www.okada-web.com/customsite/fractal/products/image/fx8_humbuster.png

Very easy to DIY if you know how to solder.
 

I have these and they work surprisingly good between my DAW (presonus, has balanced connections) and unbalanced keyboard. It would work just the same between helix and the unbalanced guitar amplifier if helix had TRS connections. Sure, you can buy a transformer-isolator and run through that your unbalanced connections but this takes one more gadget to your chain and more cables. For 4CM it is four more cables... I've got an isolator but it has only 2 channels. I might have to buy a rack unit that has 8 channels because this hum/noise -issue is present with other gear too.

Still, IMHO, a device that connects to your DAW really SHOULD have balanced connections. If there is still a problem you could use a transformer-isolator but if you connect the USB you might still get a ground loop or other noise because the USB is never isolated. There is a USB-isolator in the markets but it only works on 1.0 speed and even if it did work on faster connections Helix might still recognize it as a hub and not work with it.

[PeterHamm]

The "semi-balanced" means the humbusterâ„¢ which is this: 

 

http://www.okada-web.com/customsite/fractal/products/image/fx8_humbuster.png

Very easy to DIY if you know how to solder.

 

I have these and they work surprisingly good between my DAW (presonus, has balanced connections) and unbalanced keyboard. It would work just the same between helix and the unbalanced guitar amplifier if helix had TRS connections. Sure, you can buy a transformer-isolator and run through that your unbalanced connections but this takes one more gadget to your chain and more cables. For 4CM it is four more cables... I've got an isolator but it has only 2 channels. I might have to buy a rack unit that has 8 channels because this hum/noise -issue is present with other gear too.

 

Still, IMHO, a device that connects to your DAW really SHOULD have balanced connections. If there is still a problem you could use a transformer-isolator but if you connect the USB you might still get a ground loop or other noise because the USB is never isolated. There is a USB-isolator in the markets but it only works on 1.0 speed and even if it did work on faster connections Helix might still recognize it as a hub and not work with it.

 

If you buy a Helix primarily as an interface for your DAW, that's the wrong product. It CAN do that, but not as a primary function. I would consider that.

 

It is a guitar processor. To have it do too many things would compromise the main things or drive the price up into the stratosphere. I think even the guys who want to have 2 or 3 musicians use it at once are going to be incredibly frustrated.

[jaeger28]

 

 

Sure, you can buy a transformer-isolator and run through that your unbalanced connections but this takes one more gadget to your chain and more cables. For 4CM it is four more cables... I've got an isolator but it has only 2 channels. I might have to buy a rack unit that has 8 channels because this hum/noise -issue is present with other gear too..

 

Just to make it clear: you only need ONE isolator box if you have a ground loop in 4CM. It goes between the Helix and the Amp front input. One passive box for 30-100$, one extra cable, done. One isolator placed in that connection will break the ground loop and everything will sound perfect.

 

Again this is IF you have a ground loop with 4CM - not every amp does.

[fukuri]

What is a "semi-balanced" cable? No such thing afaik.

 

And if you connect a TRS cable to a TS jack (like you have on your amp) you could, conceivably, make MORE noise...

See wiring example 11

http://www.rane.com/note110.html

[efunkelist]

If you buy a Helix primarily as an interface for your DAW, that's the wrong product. It CAN do that, but not as a primary function. I would consider that.

 

It is a guitar processor. To have it do too many things would compromise the main things or drive the price up into the stratosphere. I think even the guys who want to have 2 or 3 musicians use it at once are going to be incredibly frustrated.

 

True. That is why I use Helix only for my guitar sounds but STILL it'd work the best if connected via USB so you could keep your signal digital. Currently I have to connect my helix to my DAW via XLR because it is the only balanced connection and I get several A/D/A-conversions on the way and this also makes reamping unavailable (the helix's usb-channels 7&8)

[efunkelist]

Just to make it clear: you only need ONE isolator box if you have a ground loop in 4CM. It goes between the Helix and the Amp front input. One passive box for 30-100$, one extra cable, done. One isolator placed in that connection will break the ground loop and everything will sound perfect.

 

Again this is IF you have a ground loop with 4CM - not every amp does.

 

I wish it was so but practice proved different.

[jaeger28]

I wish it was so but practice proved different.

Not sure what you are practising. But this fixed my ground loop in 4 CM with an Ampete One, a DSL100 as well as a Randall RM100.

Maybe your ground loop is from something else,bad cable, power outlet, or your iso box is broken?

[efunkelist]

Not sure what you are practising. But this fixed my ground loop in 4 CM with an Ampete One, a DSL100 as well as a Randall RM100.

Maybe your ground loop is from something else,bad cable, power outlet, or your iso box is broken?

 

I've got a Cicognani Brutus amplifier. I guess the ground loop is in the Helix's USB-connection and that is totally killing me. Because if I plug the USB in I get this awful noise and hiss everywhere and when I plug it off... well... Helix becomes just another stomp-box to my board and I lose the ability to record and reamp through it.

 

Currently I plan to invest in a furman power conditioner and an 8-channel transformer isolator. My Presonus audio interface used to be the ONLY rack-unit I possessed but soon there will be 3 1Us stacked. If I only knew, I should have bought the helix as a rack-unit as well... I wish I was into running marathons or something and would only need to buy new shoes instead of audio-gear ;D

[jaeger28]

I've got a Cicognani Brutus amplifier. I guess the ground loop is in the Helix's USB-connection and that is totally killing me. Because if I plug the USB in I get this awful noise and hiss everywhere and when I plug it off... well... Helix becomes just another stomp-box to my board and I lose the ability to record and reamp through it.

 

Currently I plan to invest in a furman power conditioner and an 8-channel transformer isolator. My Presonus audio interface used to be the ONLY rack-unit I possessed but soon there will be 3 1Us stacked. If I only knew, I should have bought the helix as a rack-unit as well... I wish I was into running marathons or something and would only need to buy new shoes instead of audio-gear ;D

The problem is your computer power supply then. This is not just 4CM like stated before. Run a Laptop on battery, this should fix it.

[efunkelist]

The problem is your computer power supply then. This is not just 4CM like stated before. Run a Laptop on battery, this should fix it.

 

It does fix most of the noise but my laptop is not the heart of my studio and I can't rely on it. I just have no idea how to fix the powersupply to my desktop because all the gear are in the same strip. I guess it might help if all the devices were TRS connected or transformer-isolated. 

 

Still, to my original post and concern; my other gear that has TRS-connections cause no noise nor ground loops with my DAW. Helix brought a pandoras box to my house with oh so many amazing sounds and endless possibilites AND it brings up the NOISE with my tube-amp.

 

Solutions?

- Change the iMac to a MacBookPro and run on battery when using the valve-amp (costs the most but I will have to update the PC some day no matter what)

- get the furman and more transformer-isolators (somewhat artificial way but in the long run would be beneficial with guest-gear too, perhaps)

- both, the more the merrier

 

There's just no cure for my allergy to unwanted noise so I will have to sacrifice my salaries.. :/

[rudomat]

why is it so hard to say..."yes....seems they have forgotten that...maybe they´ll include this in the next generation version..."...it shouldn´t be a matter of cost, isn´t it...? ....of course to have the send/returns only balanced is bulllollipop and not state of the art...there are not many products competing with helix, in fact it´s only fractal audios fx8 or ax8...and they use the humbuster-thing...and it works great...

 

i just don´t understand this blah blah..."...it´s not so important..."..."you can use external devices"...the aim of helix is to need no extrernal devices...and if it still does, that fails...!...i really like helix a lot, but the fact, that the amp switching is not done by relays causes that i can´t switch one of my amps with it...so that´s lollipop...!!! i´d have loved to pay 5€ more and have the possibility to switch my amp...;-(

 

hard to understand....? don´t tell me it´s sooo good...i know it is really good...but i´d like it to be the one all in one solution, wich it likes to be... 

[PeterHamm]

...the aim of helix is to need no extrernal devices...and if it still does, that fails...

 

No, it is not. I disagree.

 

​I am not sure I know of a current product in this category that has more potential to work great with external devices as Helix, with it's 4 send/returns, CV control, and Amp switching control.

 

Yes, maybe you're like me and you don't need any external devices (I didn't the last year I used HD 500 either)... but now that I see the potential... who knows... maybe I need to GET some external devices now!

[efunkelist]

Not sure what you are practising. But this fixed my ground loop in 4 CM with an Ampete One, a DSL100 as well as a Randall RM100.

Maybe your ground loop is from something else,bad cable, power outlet, or your iso box is broken?

 

Good and bad news I have! :S

 

I could say that I had a 5-cable-method because I had also a line-out from my poweramp to my DAW (to be used with an IR when wanted) and I came to remove that connection - and the noise was gone!!!

Now, this connection was a TRS and ran through a transformer isolator but still for some weird reason that alien noise disappeared when I plugged it off.

 

Well, now I can reamp with the 4CM just fine, but I have to live without that signal. I bare that better than the noise, so, I could I say I'm pretty happy now being able to reamp the real stack with my Helix!!! And it is also a bliss to run helix's preamps to the real tube poweramp! (too bad I can't have that IR'd now... But I can always mic my own cab :)