hideout Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 So, someone had posted something about the JC-120 model and its chorus sound. I can't find that post now so I'm going to try to revive it as I'd like to know more. As I remember it, the OP was saying that because you can't put a chorus effect between the preamp and power amp of the amp model (because there's no "effects loop" there), the sound of the JC-120 amp sim won't be quite right when the chorus is turned on. I would go a bit further and say that for those players who are really into spring reverbs (not me), they won't sound quite right either as you'll either have to put that effect before or after the amp model. This would all be moot of course if the chorus effect and spring reverb were part and parcel of the amp models. Something tells me that they're not. Thoughts? Am I wrong? Am i imagining things? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 I like putting the spring reverb after the amp but before the cab. Works really well for me, and sounds fine. I think in the majority of cases, there would be little sonic difference between having an effect between the preamp and power amp and after the power amp and before the cab. There are some cases where if you had a lot of power amp saturation, it could make a difference, but the whole idea behind an effects loop is that it gives you the ability to put effects after saturation (for the most part). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share Posted February 8, 2016 I like putting the spring reverb after the amp but before the cab. Works really well for me, and sounds fine. I think in the majority of cases, there would be little sonic difference between having an effect between the preamp and power amp and after the power amp and before the cab. There are some cases where if you had a lot of power amp saturation, it could make a difference, but the whole idea behind an effects loop is that it gives you the ability to put effects after saturation (for the most part). I guess I'm going by the modeling accuracy that Line 6 has been touting. If they are willing to sweat the details about the characteristics of something as miniscule as the light bulb used in a Univibe, why not be just as accurate with the way the reverb and chorus is placed in the signal chain of a real JC-120 or a Fender Twin? And really, I'm not saying this just to be argumentative but wouldn't the models sound better if this little detail is more accurately represented? Wouldn't the JC-120's chorus effect and the Twin's spring reverb sound more authentic if it were placed before the power amp simulation algorithm? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 I guess I'm going by the modeling accuracy that Line 6 has been touting. If they are willing to sweat the details about the characteristics of something as miniscule as the light bulb used in a Univibe, why not be just as accurate with the way the reverb and chorus is placed in the signal chain of a real JC-120 or a Fender Twin? And really, I'm not saying this just to be argumentative but wouldn't the models sound better if this little detail is more accurately represented? Wouldn't the JC-120's chorus effect and the Twin's spring reverb sound more authentic if it were placed before the power amp simulation algorithm? I remember being mystified by this functionality not existing when I first got my Helix as well. Although the loop routing flexibility is extensive, I also expected to be able to insert a Helix FX loop in between the preamp & power amp. The common prevailing advice on how to use effects like reverb, delay, and even some mod FX with a guitar amplifier has always been that they are best placed in the amp's FX loop rather than in the FX input chain before the preamp. And, of course, the FX loop on an amp lives between the preamp and the power amp, before the signal hits the cab and perhaps a mic (if you are mic'ed up) . Phil_m may be right that it would not be a detectable difference but the fact that you can't do this right now does go against everything I was ever taught about effects placement. I get your point about a MFX like the Helix, with this level of detail, not having this feature. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joepeggio Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 We hope they implement the splitting of the pre and amp sections of the full amp. Many were hoping to also mix and match various amps for some unique tones. Maybe not for the same reasons brought up here but same outcome. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 We hope they implement the splitting of the pre and amp sections of the full amp. Many were hoping to also mix and match various amps for some unique tones. Maybe not for three same reasons brought up here but same outcome. That would actually be way more interesting to (the mixing and matching of different pre and power sections) than the whole effects loops thing. But, yes, having the ability to model a "true" effects loop would be nice, too. I'm not against it, by any means. I just don't think the difference will be all that dramatic. I guess we always want what we don't have, though. :D 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 That would actually be way more interesting to (the mixing and matching of different pre and power sections) than the whole effects loops thing. But, yes, having the ability to model a "true" effects loop would be nice, too. I'm not against it, by any means. I just don't think the difference will be all that dramatic. I guess we always want what we don't have, though. Maybe, maybe not. I have to admit that I too want the mix and matching of differing preamps and power amps. In fact, that was my underlying want. For some reason I wanted to be careful - maybe it's because I'm been flamed for my "crazy" ideas before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fukuri Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I would settle for a mic input that doesn't burn out of you plug and unplug a mic from it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 We hope they implement the splitting of the pre and amp sections of the full amp. Many were hoping to also mix and match various amps for some unique tones. Maybe not for three same reasons brought up here but same outcome. That would actually be way more interesting to (the mixing and matching of different pre and power sections) than the whole effects loops thing. But, yes, having the ability to model a "true" effects loop would be nice, too. I'm not against it, by any means. I just don't think the difference will be all that dramatic. I guess we always want what we don't have, though. :D Maybe, maybe not. I have to admit that I too want the mix and matching of differing preamps and power amps. In fact, that was my underlying want. For some reason I wanted to be careful - maybe it's because I'm been flamed for my "crazy" ideas before. Mixing & matching preamps and power amps, very cool idea! And bonus, it might well make the ability to insert an FX loop in between a foregone conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revans Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Several good reasons for creating preamp and power amp models: 1. Placing reverb, chorus, other built-in, and effect-loop effects where the are in the real amps. One reason we like modeling is that we can get as close as possible to the real amps and effects. 2. New creative options, mixing and matching preamps and power amps. Another reason we like modeling is the ease of experimenting and creating new sounds. 3. Using a modeled preamp with a real power amp and cab, or using a real preamp with a modeled power amp and cab. Vote for these suggestions on IdeaScale: Independent pre and power amp blocks http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Independent-pre-and-power-amp-blocks/748793-23508 Insert Points for Amp and Pre-Amp models that have effects loops http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Insert-Points-for-Amp-and-Pre-Amp-models-that-have-effects-loops/799585-23508 Helix: More Fender Amps, and with built in Verb/Trem http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Helix-More-Fender-Amps-and-with-built-in-Verb-Trem/739896-23508 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phnurt Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I've owned more than a few modelers (software and hardware) and I've yet to hear the "magic" of a JC-120 from any of 'em. For that matter, I've never heard a chorus sound anywhere near a TC SCF either. Being a child of the 80's, a good clean chorus is synonymous with rock-n-roll to me and I'd love to see some love for the tones of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 I wish I could vote for these ideas on IdeaScale but it won't accept my Line 6 password, it won't send me an email to reset my password, nor is there a way to create a new login. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I wish I could vote for these ideas on IdeaScale but it won't accept my Line 6 password, it won't send me an email to reset my password, nor is there a way to create a new login. The Ideascale page requires a completely separate login from the Line 6 page. It's a third party site. There should be link to create a new account there. After you enter your information, your account will have to be approved by the site moderator before you can vote or suggest new ideas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Thanks, phil_m. I'm in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revans Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Helix already has preamp versions of all the amps. All we need now are power-amp versions of all the amps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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