Rick 12, Still Lacking Realism?

[McLenison]

I have a real Rick 12 that I play through an old Vox AC-30 and it sounds sweeeeeet!  The Rick 12's in my JTV-89 are ok, but not that real sounding. When I tune the JTV-89 a whole step down and play the G string anywhere on the first 5 frets the octave sounds weird, buzzy.  My POG2 sounds better.  Also, the high E and B strings don't even sound doubled.  Your thoughts?

 

Side bar:  The "D" string sounds like a ring modulator when lightly picked over the treble pickup in some spots.  Is this a known anomaly?

 

PS:  I've put foam under the strings between the nut and tuners.  Didn't help.

 

 

[johnnyayyy]

I have a real Rick 12 that I play through an old Vox AC-30 and it sounds sweeeeeet!  The Rick 12's in my JTV-89 are ok, but not that real sounding. When I tune the JTV-89 a whole step down and play the G string anywhere on the first 5 frets the octave sounds weird, buzzy.  My POG2 sounds better.  Also, the high E and B strings don't even sound doubled.  Your thoughts?

 

Side bar:  The "D" string sounds like a ring modulator when lightly picked over the treble pickup in some spots.  Is this a known anomaly?

 

PS:  I've put foam under the strings between the nut and tuners.  Didn't help.

 

1. My first guess is your guitar may need a setup, any slightly buzzing strings will make the modeling do funny things. If you mean you are physically tuning your strings down a full step to D standard you may need to go to a slightly heavier string to compensate for the loss of tension, also this will change your intonation... I normally tune my JTV89 down to D, I am using the stock strings as supplied from the factory and haven't noticed anything weird yet but I don't really use the 12 strings (have always thought the Variax Rickenbacker models sounded weak, hopefully this will be fixed in the new 2.0 firmware) , I do recall from what I read in the old forums that the 12 strings in the Variax have always seemed to be more prone to making weird noises at the slightest bit of fret buzz, tho I may not be remembering this correctly.

 

2. Have you tried changing the tuning of the octave strings in Workbench? If you cannot hear the doubling on the high E and B you should be able to adjust the level and the amount of detuning to bring them out more.

 

3. In addition to the foam under the strings at the headstock you may wish to try adding the small Velcro strip or other material of your choice under the strings at the bridge as shown in this thread:  http://line6.com/support/message/485558#485558

[McLenison]

1. My first guess is your guitar may need a setup, any slightly buzzing strings will make the modeling do funny things. If you mean you are physically tuning your strings down a full step to D standard you may need to go to a slightly heavier string to compensate for the loss of tension, also this will change your intonation... I normally tune my JTV89 down to D, I am using the stock strings as supplied from the factory and haven't noticed anything weird yet but I don't really use the 12 strings (have always thought the Variax Rickenbacker models sounded weak, hopefully this will be fixed in the new 2.0 firmware) , I do recall from what I read in the old forums that the 12 strings in the Variax have always seemed to be more prone to making weird noises at the slightest bit of fret buzz, tho I may not be remembering this correctly.

 

2. Have you tried changing the tuning of the octave strings in Workbench? If you cannot hear the doubling on the high E and B you should be able to adjust the level and the amount of detuning to bring them out more.

 

3. In addition to the foam under the strings at the headstock you may wish to try adding the small Velcro strip or other material of your choice under the strings at the bridge as shown in this thread:  http://line6.com/support/message/485558#485558

Thanks Johnny.  There was some buzz initially.  I raised the action, adjusted the neck and put 11's on.  Not too much buzz now, if any.  I haven't tried using Workbench.  I'm still looking for a tutorial.  If you know of one that walks you through it in "how to" procedures and not just a features summary, I'd appreciate it.

[johnnyayyy]

Thanks Johnny.  There was some buzz initially.  I raised the action, adjusted the neck and put 11's on.  Not too much buzz now, if any.  I haven't tried using Workbench.  I'm still looking for a tutorial.  If you know of one that walks you through it in "how to" procedures and not just a features summary, I'd appreciate it.

 

The info you need is probably here: http://www.vettaville.nl/vvworkbenchtutorials.html

 

You can probably figure it out pretty quickly even without the tutorials, it is fairly simple. Connect guitar. Start Workbench. You will see a list of models in the guitar, click the one you want to modify, change the tuning or whatever else you want to adjust, and save it to the guitar. You can always go back to the Factory version or make more adjustments if you change your mind later. You should give it a try and if you have any questions just post them here and people will help.

[TheRealZap]

i'd go a step further, and say the real secret isn't even learning how to use workbench...

you really need to learn how to build and mod guitars...

workbench is just an extension of that... i somehow doubt you'd ever find a full and accurate tutorial on that subjective topic...

but workbench is easy... and powerful, if you know what you're doing or just don't mind experimenting (like myself)

 

The info you need is probably here: http://www.vettaville.nl/vvworkbenchtutorials.html

 

You can probably figure it out pretty quickly even without the tutorials, it is fairly simple. Connect guitar. Start Workbench. You will see a list of models in the guitar, click the one you want to modify, change the tuning or whatever else you want to adjust, and save it to the guitar. You can always go back to the Factory version or make more adjustments if you change your mind later. You should give it a try and if you have any questions just post them here and people will help.

[McLenison]

1. My first guess is your guitar may need a setup, any slightly buzzing strings will make the modeling do funny things. If you mean you are physically tuning your strings down a full step to D standard you may need to go to a slightly heavier string to compensate for the loss of tension, also this will change your intonation... I normally tune my JTV89 down to D, I am using the stock strings as supplied from the factory and haven't noticed anything weird yet but I don't really use the 12 strings (have always thought the Variax Rickenbacker models sounded weak, hopefully this will be fixed in the new 2.0 firmware) , I do recall from what I read in the old forums that the 12 strings in the Variax have always seemed to be more prone to making weird noises at the slightest bit of fret buzz, tho I may not be remembering this correctly.

 

2. Have you tried changing the tuning of the octave strings in Workbench? If you cannot hear the doubling on the high E and B you should be able to adjust the level and the amount of detuning to bring them out more.

 

3. In addition to the foam under the strings at the headstock you may wish to try adding the small Velcro strip or other material of your choice under the strings at the bridge as shown in this thread:  http://line6.com/support/message/485558#485558

 

In #2 are you saying that by using Workbench, can you independently adjust the volume of each string and detune the E & B strings of the 12 string models?

[johnnyayyy]

In #2 are you saying that by using Workbench, can you independently adjust the volume of each string and detune the E & B strings of the 12 string models?

 

Yes.

[McLenison]

Cool, thanks!

[TheRealZap]

i believe that you can only detune the "offset" and not the individual strings on the 12 strings... but i've never bothered... just an FYI... if i recall correctly.

[johnnyayyy]

i believe that you can only detune the "offset" and not the individual strings on the 12 strings... but i've never bothered... just an FYI... if i recall correctly.

 

The simulated octave/doubled strings are detunable - I think this is the same thing you mean by "offset"? If he is having trouble hearing the octave/doubled simulated strings detuning them slightly will bring them out a little more, make it sound a little more realistic.

[TheRealZap]

exactly like +/- some hz

but not like changing the low e octave string to a b or anything like that... so not a full alt tune, more like a slight detune.

 

The simulated octave/doubled strings are detunable - I think this is the same thing you mean by "offset"? If he is having trouble hearing the octave/doubled simulated strings detuning them slightly will bring them out a little more, make it sound a little more realistic.

[McLenison]

Thanks guys.  The E & B strings do not sound doubled and naturally chorusing like a real 12 string would, but instead like a single E & B string on a 12 string guitar.

[brue58ski]

Thanks guys. The E & B strings do not sound doubled and naturally chorusing like a real 12 string would, but instead like a single E & B string on a 12 string guitar.

So, as was stated before, you need to fireup your Workbench and detune those strings a little more which can be done on a string by string level in Workbench. Let us know if that helps. I always thought the electric 12 strings were a little lacking but I don't have one or access to one so I have no way of comparing. You're input would be greatly appreciated if you found a way to improve them.

[McLenison]

So, as was stated before, you need to fireup your Workbench and detune those strings a little more which can be done on a string by string level in Workbench. Let us know if that helps. I always thought the electric 12 strings were a little lacking but I don't have one or access to one so I have no way of comparing. You're input would be greatly appreciated if you found a way to improve them.

 

I'll be experimenting soon.  I'll keep you posted.  I just resolved another issue today with copying and saving a model to Custom 2.  Evidently this procedure needs to be done quickly or it "times out" and wont save.

[karmicfreak]

I'd be really interested to hear what you come up with, comparing your Ricky-12 to the Variax.  Please share, and if you could, make a video or audio recording showcasing your findings!  I am reminded that the model is of ONE particular instrument, but if you can A/B the two and not tell which is which, that's the real test.  Thanks!

[johnnyayyy]

I'd be really interested to hear what you come up with, comparing your Ricky-12 to the Variax.  Please share, and if you could, make a video or audio recording showcasing your findings!  I am reminded that the model is of ONE particular instrument, but if you can A/B the two and not tell which is which, that's the real test.  Thanks!

 

I think the best test of the accuracy of the JTV modeling might be an A/B comparison of the 5 "Custom 1" models in the JTV89 and the 5 mag positions of the JTV 89. The closer those sounds are the closer we might assume the other modeled sounds are to the original guitars modeled as well - none of the "different pickups, different wood" etc. variables as when comparing say a new Strat to the Strat models in the JTV.

 

I have been planning to do an A/B vid but have not yet had time/opportunity, was hoping someone would have done one by now... from the limited noodiling around I have done on the JTV mags the models seem pretty close, tho the guitar seems to react slightly differently depending on whether mags or models are chosen (not referring to palm muting here).

[TheRealZap]

I can't vouch for the authenticity....

BUT...

 

 

you might want to try again:

 

 

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