JTV-59 High E string bridge saddle failed

[maxnew40]

Damn! After two years my JTV-59 has failed and will need repair. The bridge saddle transducer for the high E string has failed and doesn't produce any sound now (At least I was able to still play using the mag pickups in the guitar).

 

I find it interesting that this is the same saddle that was broken on my first brand new JTV-59. Is the high E saddle a common failure point on these guitars?

 

Before I go and find an authorized repair shop and have to be without my favorite guitar. Are there any troubleshooting steps I can perform to verify that the bridge saddle needs to be replaced?

 

-Max

[cruisinon2]

Are there any troubleshooting steps I can perform to verify that the bridge saddle needs to be replaced?

I think it's pretty cut and dry. If everything else is making noise with the modeling engaged, except that one string, then your diagnosis is a safe bet.

 

I suppose you could check the string volumes in Workbench...if you happened to be mucking about in there recently, I suppose it's possible that the E strings volume was turned off inadvertently, though it seems rather unlikely.

 

Also, the saddle's ground connection relies on simply being in contact with the bridge. Make sure there's no gunk/dust/other crap underneath the saddle itself. Anything is possible.

 

I don't think that this is a particularly difficult fix though...the piezo leads are soldered to the small board fixed to the sustain block under the bridge. It's pretty straightforward. You'll save yourself days to weeks and a bunch of money if you just order a new saddle from Full Compass...

[Charlie_Watt]

Try removing the strings and cleaning real well around that piezo transducer.  It may just have a bad ground connection.  It relies on contact rather than a wire. (bad design IMO).  It is relatively easy to replace the transducer - and if it is not under warrantee that is what I would do.  You can buy them from Full Compass.  You have to solder the wire to replace it.  If you don't know how to do this, don't try it at home!

[clay-man]

Replacing piezos are super super easy. Like holy crap easy. I've done it on my 600 many times.

 

The only problem is, you'd have to find out where the piezos are soldered to on the 59.

 

When it came to the 600, I had to take the bridge off of the guitar and get to the little board where the wires are soldered to. There was a ribbon cable that I had to disconnect that leads to the motherboard of the Variax.

 

I'm not sure if it's any different on my 69 either.

 

 

Another thing I'd try, is sliding out the piezo, and trying to clean between the saddle and the piezo to get a better ground contact. 
If you can get your hands on electronic contact cleaner, I'd spray a bit of that on a qtip and then rub it against the saddle and the bottom of the piezo. If you can't get that, try getting high percentage rubbing alcohol.

 

Like Charlie said, signal is through a wire, but ground is done through contact against the saddle, which really is, a bad design, as it leads to this problem.

[maxnew40]

Cool, thanks for the suggestions. I have contact cleaner and I can solder(I have a collection of coin op video games from the 80's and that stuff is a must have).  I will also look for pics of the the thing taken apart so I can see how it all connected.

 

It failed without ever using the workbench, so I doubt string volume is an issue.

 

I have a JTV-69 as a backup for the modeled sounds to get me through the next gig until I can get this one fixed.

 

I also have a new Helix on the way and I am quite excited about that.

 

-Max

[maxnew40]

I only see one JTV piezo saddle for the JTV at Full Compass, are they the same on the JTV-59 and the JTV-69?

 

-Max

[psarkissian]

It could as simple as a half loose connector coming up on one side

connecting to the main board.

 

Or it could be a failed piezo element, which would require an authorized

tech with access to service info and parts.

[Charlie_Watt]

You can buy the piezo and replace it yourself since you know how to solder.  IT is a piece of cake to do.  If your guitar is 2 years old, there is no warrantee so I would do it yourself.  You should be able to order the individual piezo itself from Full Compass.  You do not have to replace the whole bridge.  Buy a second spare while you are at it.  They don't fail that often and you may be able to revive it by cleaning.

[psarkissian]

http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/234088-Line-6-11-00-0010

 

...would be for the piezo for the JTV.

[Charlie_Watt]

I think this is the one you want for your 59.   http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/234088-Line-6-11-00-0010

 

I am pretty sure that the 59 and 69 use the same one.  I have a 69.

[psarkissian]

59, 69, 89 and the Variax Standard all use the same one.

It's the 89F that's the odd one.

[clay-man]

Because it uses Graphtech instead of LR Baggs.

 

Either way, try the contact cleaner thing first. Dampen a Qtip with a decent amount of contact cleaner and rub it against the piezo's sides where it contacts the saddle, and the opening on the saddle where it sits in.

 

I guarantee if the piezo is merely failing because of gunk building up between the piezo and saddle, this will completely get rid of the problem.

 

I used contact cleaner on stuff like game cartridges, and even my old Variax's pickup selector, and it's pretty much an instant, brand new-esque fix if the problem relates to dirty contact issues. Way more effective than rubbing alcohol in my opinion.

[maxnew40]

I got it fixed with a little bit of contact cleaner as you all have suggested.

 

I just loosened the string so I could move it off of the saddle, shot a bit contact cleaner on the saddle, wiped it off and boom it is working just fine again.

 

Thank you all for the great suggestions!

 

-Max

[cruisinon2]

I got it fixed with a little bit of contact cleaner as you all have suggested.

 

I just loosened the string so I could move it off of the saddle, shot a bit contact cleaner on the saddle, wiped it off and boom it is working just fine again.

 

Thank you all for the great suggestions!

 

-Max

Nice! Contact cleaner, WD40, and duct tape should all be supplied at birth. Between the 3, you can fix 90% life's problems. ;)

[Charlie_Watt]

Good deal!  For the life of me I can't figure out why they did not include a ground wire on the piezos.  I had constant problems with this on my first Variax (500) until I replaced them with Ghost piezos with ground wires on them.

[psarkissian]

With the JTV, the bridge and saddle are the ground.

[Charlie_Watt]

Bad Design!  I am an EE and I know a thing or two about how to ground things.  You don't rely on contact the way the Variax does. 

[psarkissian]

It's a little deeper than that. Grounding on something like this

isn't as simple as some would thing. Not the usual bill-o-fare.

It's a little more complex than simple grounding. Certain things

that have to be dealt with and considered for proper grounding.

[snhirsch]

Actually, it is just as simple as anyone with electronics design and technical experience would think.  Relying on all the dissimilar metal-to-metal contacts to create a ground return is plain and simply a poor practice.  I solved a number of subtle issues on my JTV-69 by adding ground wires to all piezo elements.  For the love-of-Mike, Line6 has dedicated solder pads on the PCB expressly for ground return!

[psarkissian]

"... has dedicated solder pads on the PCB expressly for ground return"---

You, Charlie  and I know that 'cause we're circuit geeks. Not all out there are

as savvy about circuits as you and I are.

 

All grounds must be properly grouped. I get back the odd mod, now and then,

that's done wrong.

[cruisinon2]

Oh good, I was afraid I might have missed the season premier of "It's Not Your Granddad's Archtop"...

[cruisinon2]

Actually, it is just as simple as anyone with electronics design and technical experience would think. Relying on all the dissimilar metal-to-metal contacts to create a ground return is plain and simply a poor practice. I solved a number of subtle issues on my JTV-69 by adding ground wires to all piezo elements. For the love-of-Mike, Line6 has dedicated solder pads on the PCB expressly for ground return!

You're wasting your breath...the powers the that be will never stop trying to convince you that the spam you've just been served is actually beef Wellington.

[clay-man]

It really is poor design, as much as I love the guitar. They had a perfect opportunity to correct this problem when jumping from the first gen Variaxes to the JTV series. They could have told LR Baggs to redesign the grounding mechanism into a wire form.

 

Us guitarists are going to sweat like pigs into the cracks of those piezos and it'll eventually lead to problems. It should of been a no brainer.

 

Luckily this problem is extremely easy to fix. It's why I didn't send my 600 back when I bought it off ebay because I figured the problem was insanely easy to fix.

 

It seems like the issue isn't as bad on the JTVs as the old Variaxes though, but time will take it's toll.

[psarkissian]

Not spam, no PTB, just good grounding practices.

Check out AES journal for June 1995. Bill Whitlock

is the guru.

 

I won't bore with my curriculum vitae, it's rather lengthy.

 

There was also a really good piece in the magazine EDN

back in the day that was good. And of course there's

IEEE's Spectrum, Bob Pease and his Pease Porridge and

Robert Lucky's column,... that have all had some good stuff

about grounding over the years. The Pensado Papers of

their day, when it comes to circuits.

 

Like I said, I get enough units back incorrectly grounded.

And not just guitars (though I just got done with one an

hour ago). And it's never pretty.

 

Just trying to keep your gear from ending up on my bench.

 

 

 

[Charlie_Watt]

There is no rational reason for the piezo to have only one wire on it!  It causes many failures by bad connections between the piezo and the bridge which is grounded.

[clay-man]

Seriously. All you need to do is have wires to wherever the f the bridge is grounded.

 

Are you saying that people try to ground their piezos incorrectly and that it ends up frying the guitar and going to your bench?

 

What was so hard for Line 6 to tell LR Baggs to make piezo units with 2 wires and ground those wires to the ground wire connected to the bridge? No it wasn't.

 

I'm pretty sure the piezos used on the JTV are special designed for the JTV line anyways, so what the hell was the excuse?

[snhirsch]

I'm pretty sure the piezos used on the JTV are special designed for the JTV line anyways, so what the hell was the excuse?

 

Probably a directive from the bean-counters to save $0.05 per transducer.  There's a tiny piezo element with two contacts potted in those bridge pieces.  It doesn't seem like rocket science to have brought out the second wire instead of bonding it to the shell.  The good news is that it's possible (if a bit tedious) to add a ground wire.  Several of us have done it.  But, in deference to Mr. Sarkissian's workload, don't even think about tackling this unless you have solid electronics bench skills.  It's not the worst challenge I've ever faced, but it's also not a good candidate for "My First Soldering Experience".

[Charlie_Watt]

I agree.  Soldering to the metal case is not trivial.  My JTV is working fine so far but I will go that route if I start having connection problems like I did on my 500.  I put Ghost piezos on my 500 and it was a huge improvement - and they have two wires on them!  The only down side to two wires is that they both have to route through the bridge.  It's a bit of a tight fit and the wires are already pretty small.

[markbrid]

Wish I would have heard of this issue a few days ago; my friend bought a used JTV after playing mine, and his had the issue. He returned it due to the problem. Too bad it is such a quick fix and we didn't try it.

[cruisinon2]

Wish I would have heard of this issue a few days ago; my friend bought a used JTV after playing mine, and his had the issue. He returned it due to the problem. Too bad it is such a quick fix and we didn't try it.

Well, piezo elements do crap out as well. There's no guarantee that it was a grounding issue in that particular case. Used anything is a gamble...no telling what might have been done to it by the previous owner. Used or not, you shouldn't have to fix things on day 1. I probably would have returned it too.

[Charlie_Watt]

Buying used is a $$ vs Fiddle tradeoff sometimes.  I would take a chance on a used Variax given my experience with them if the price was right.

[markbrid]

Well, piezo elements do crap out as well. There's no guarantee that it was a grounding issue in that particular case. Used anything is a gamble...no telling what might have been done to it by the previous owner. Used or not, you shouldn't have to fix things on day 1. I probably would have returned it too.

His issue was more of an intermittent out of tune sound on the high E in Variax mode only (sounded fine with passive pickups).  He is lost on instrument technical issues, and I was out of town and wasn't able to help with the problem. 

 

It is too bad as he is a fantastic slide player, and went ape when I handed him my JTV59 in open G resonator.  Since he plays in multiple tunings and wants a variety of tones, the Variax is the perfect choice for him.

[clay-man]

Probably a directive from the bean-counters to save $0.05 per transducer.  There's a tiny piezo element with two contacts potted in those bridge pieces.  It doesn't seem like rocket science to have brought out the second wire instead of bonding it to the shell.  The good news is that it's possible (if a bit tedious) to add a ground wire.  Several of us have done it.  But, in deference to Mr. Sarkissian's workload, don't even think about tackling this unless you have solid electronics bench skills.  It's not the worst challenge I've ever faced, but it's also not a good candidate for "My First Soldering Experience".

 

That's still highly insulting considering that the JTV is a 1k guitar, is meant to be a more high end version of the Variax guitars, and was also released to fix flaws in the first generation of Variaxes.

 

You really want to be that anal about saving money, just make the guitar 1000.30 and call it a day.