Interstate Zed power amp distortion not great

[zooey]

I was hearing some unnatural buzz on the top end of a patch I was working on using the Interstate Zed amp and cab. Figured out that turning the Master down gets rid of it, then it sounds great.

 

I really doubt the actual amp sounds like that when you push it. It has no master volume, so maybe that's where the modeling went astray, maybe?

 

Has anyone else noticed that?

[njglover]

Try bringing in the high cut filter on the cab, I find that bringing it down to 11.5 kHz or thereabouts yields the best results for distorted tones in particular. Guitar speakers don't generally produce frequencies higher than that anyway.

[amsdenj]

For amps that don't have a master volume control, the modeled amp is with the master set at 100%. Try a different microphone on the cabinet. I tend to prefer the ribbon mics as the are warmer sounding. Get the right mic and mic position before you resort to high cut as this retains the dynamics of the IR.

[njglover]

I tend to disagree. The 57 model, for example, has way more high frequency content than any real 57 would. I don't feel that the frequency response of the cab models is terribly accurate, so high cut is pretty much necessary to get a more realistic tone. But definitely play with mics and positions, too, those make a big difference.

[chuskey]

I was hearing some unnatural buzz on the top end of a patch I was working on using the Interstate Zed amp and cab. Figured out that turning the Master down gets rid of it, then it sounds great.

 

I really doubt the actual amp sounds like that when you push it. It has no master volume, so maybe that's where the modeling went astray, maybe?

 

Has anyone else noticed that?

This was the reason I switched to the Matchless Jump amp model....

 

I haven't played the real thing, but it's possible that it's in there.  Line 6 talks about modelling amps "warts and all".  

[zooey]

Thanks for the tips, and for the confirmation that it kind of actually IS in there.

 

However...

 

- While it's true that real guitar speakers don't reproduce up to the 20kHz the Hi Cut filter goes to, neither (I assume) do Helix's cabs, so no "extra" roll-off should be needed.

 

- I tried that anyway, and it takes some of the top end off the unnatural distortion, but the distortion is still there. It also costs in presence.

 

- And I take it back, lowering the Master down to 6.0 gets rid of some of the distortion, but by no means all. It still doesn't sound "great".

 

 

I do love the Matchless, and the Twin, and some other heads, but part of the fun and versatility of modelers is the ability to use a bunch of different virtual gear, each with its own vibe, capabilities, and tendencies. It's a drag when some of it just sounds kinda crap. If it was a real amp, I'd return it and try another unit, and if that didn't work, I'd return it for real.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm having a lot of fun with Helix in general, playing a lot, staying up too late, blowing off chores, the whole nine yards. I even really like the overall sound of this patch, a lot. But when I listen to that amp in detail, there's that artificial-sounding buzz to it, really puts a damper on the thing. It interferes with the joy of it, and not to be pretentious, it offends my sense of craftsmanship.

 

Line 6, if there's any way to clean that up, whether it's true to life or not (which I doubt or they wouldn't be so highly regarded), I say go for it. If there are concerns about backwards compatibility, then either provide a v2 model, or better yet, a V1/V2 control.

[njglover]

Thanks for the tips, and for the confirmation that it kind of actually IS in there.

 

However...

 

- While it's true that real guitar speakers don't reproduce up to the 20kHz the Hi Cut filter goes to, neither (I assume) do Helix's cabs, so no "extra" roll-off should be needed.

 

- I tried that anyway, and it takes some of the top end off the unnatural distortion, but the distortion is still there. It also costs in presence.

 

Your assumption is incorrect, the cab models absolutely do produce those frequencies (as is evidenced by the fact that you tried it and it made a difference). I have also noticed a little buzzing happening with a Tweed model I am using, but I only started noticing it today on headphones and it's fairly slight, so I'm not sure if it's an actual issue with the model or just a quirk of the amp that was accurately modeled. I don't have anything to compare it to, so I can't be sure.

[phil_m]

Thanks for the tips, and for the confirmation that it kind of actually IS in there.

 

However...

 

- While it's true that real guitar speakers don't reproduce up to the 20kHz the Hi Cut filter goes to, neither (I assume) do Helix's cabs, so no "extra" roll-off should be needed.

 

- I tried that anyway, and it takes some of the top end off the unnatural distortion, but the distortion is still there. It also costs in presence.

 

- And I take it back, lowering the Master down to 6.0 gets rid of some of the distortion, but by no means all. It still doesn't sound "great".

 

 

I do love the Matchless, and the Twin, and some other heads, but part of the fun and versatility of modelers is the ability to use a bunch of different virtual gear, each with its own vibe, capabilities, and tendencies. It's a drag when some of it just sounds kinda crap. If it was a real amp, I'd return it and try another unit, and if that didn't work, I'd return it for real.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm having a lot of fun with Helix in general, playing a lot, staying up too late, blowing off chores, the whole nine yards. I even really like the overall sound of this patch, a lot. But when I listen to that amp in detail, there's that artificial-sounding buzz to it, really puts a damper on the thing. It interferes with the joy of it, and not to be pretentious, it offends my sense of craftsmanship.

 

Line 6, if there's any way to clean that up, whether it's true to life or not (which I doubt or they wouldn't be so highly regarded), I say go for it. If there are concerns about backwards compatibility, then either provide a v2 model, or better yet, a V1/V2 control.

 

Real guitar cabs certainly can produce these higher frequencies. They are not as as prevalent as the mid-range, but you can still pick them up with close-micing. You just don't usually listen to a guitar cab with your ear and inch or two from the center of the cone. And an SM57 can sound kind of raw when listened to in isolation. In the context of a recording or playing with a band, these frequencies will be masked by other things.

 

It interesting to me that if I look at the presets for various EQ plug-ins that I have, if I pull up the ones for rhythm guitar, they almost always have a steep high-cut. Rolling off the highs isn't all that uncommon in recording. I do find that sometimes it's not necessary, though. It depends on the overall mix.

[willjrock]

People shouldnt have to work so hard to get great tone in the modeling world. Altho it DOES still take some effort, ive never had to hi pass or EQ any other sim, cab, or amp for that matter to get descent sound.

 

There are nasty distortions in the Helix that you must go out of your way to filter out a lot of times, hence all the complaints. Line 6 still has plenty of work to do on its modeling in the helix.

[amsdenj]

I tend to disagree. The 57 model, for example, has way more high frequency content than any real 57 would. I don't feel that the frequency response of the cab models is terribly accurate, so high cut is pretty much necessary to get a more realistic tone. But definitely play with mics and positions, too, those make a big difference.

I would agree with this as well.

[amsdenj]

- And I take it back, lowering the Master down to 6.0 gets rid of some of the distortion, but by no means all. It still doesn't sound "great".

 

Line 6, if there's any way to clean that up, whether it's true to life or not (which I doubt or they wouldn't be so highly regarded), I say go for it. If there are concerns about backwards compatibility, then either provide a v2 model, or better yet, a V1/V2 control.

This is perhaps a hint. Gain staging is critically important for anything that has digital in its signal chain, or perhaps unintentional block clipping or blocks being driven outside their normal sweet spot. Any of these things can create problems. Make sure you gain stage your patches from source to sink - guitar all the way to the speaker. Nothing should be overdriven but the amp model and distortion pedals, or those blocks that are intended to produce distortion. 

 

A simple way to do this is to ensure that no block is adding too much gain when it is switched on, and that you have the gain control on your amplifier set so that you're sure its not clipping through its preamps or power amps.

[zooey]

Spent some time checking out various options.

 

First, I replaced the ZED head with the Rivet, clean clean clean, so it's not something else in the chain, or an overall gain staging issue. (Nice amp for that of course.)

 

I also messed more with the Zed amp gain, turns out that much of that has the same "fuzz" as master gain. Guess I like its overall tonality, and how it sounds driven some, if I don't listen too closely, but in detail there's something unnatural about it, to me.

 

Then I tried making sure all blocks were roughly unity gain. They most certainly were not, the amp stage had quite a bit of gain. When I removed everything but the amp/cab, and made its volume the same as with it bypassed. the patch was way quieter than it was originally.

 

 

In fact, it was quiet enough that I had to deck the headphone volume to be comfortable, and I'm not into blowing my ears out. So...

• Does every do the unity-gain-everywhere thing?
• If you do, does the headphone level end up kind of low?
• How about the 1/4, XLR outs, etc?