IR's versus Helix cab sims

[mileskb]

On 7/12/2016 at 5:48 AM, jasdadgad said:

Hello.

 

What is the difference between an IR from Ownhammer or 3Sigma and the "built-in" cab sims on the Helix?

 

Were the Helix cab sims captured using a technique other than impulse response?

 

If so, why?  People seem to prefer external IR's to the built-in cabs.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

I respond to this so often that I'm beginning to annoy myself.  It's all about axis !!!!  The helix cabs do not provide any ability to change the axis/mic position other than distance.  If you happen to like the sound of the helix cabs, it's probably because you like whatever axis (my guess is just off center, or maybe multi-mic).   This is a common spot that live sound guys use, so it's a familiar sound.   Easy to love it.   If however, you like the sound of certain cabs with the mic near the middle or edge of the cone...  or a combination of axis' and mics then really the only way to get there is with 3rd party IR's.     It's really that simple.  They all sound great.  But do they sound "right" for you?

 

[PeterHamm]

1 hour ago, arkieboy said:

I can get good sounds with both, but I use IRs because they use less processing power.  

Actually a 2048 IR, as I recall, takes about the same CPU power as a single Helix Cab.

[arkieboy]

14 hours ago, PeterHamm said:

Actually a 2048 IR, as I recall, takes about the same CPU power as a single Helix Cab.

 

But if I want to run my AC30 through a 2x12 open back cab and my Marshall through a 4x12 closed back cab, then I will need 2 cab blocks in the preset.

By using an IR block, I can change the loaded IR on a snapshot-by-snapshot basis.  Thus it uses half the resources.

Personally I can't tell the difference between 2048 and 1024 IRs for cab modelling so I use the 1024.

[PeterHamm]

6 hours ago, arkieboy said:

 

But if I want to run my AC30 through a 2x12 open back cab and my Marshall through a 4x12 closed back cab, then I will need 2 cab blocks in the preset.

 

Yup, and one of the BEST reasons to use an IR instead of a cab block imho.

 

[themetallikid]

Ahh, reading this opened up my eyes, I did not realize you could swap IR's via Snapshots...thought I had to run multiple IR blocks which made it more of a mess than a help. 

[HonestOpinion]

At the risk of being redundant as many here have stated these points, I love the flexibility of the Helix cabs. Can't wait for them to add more parameters like off-axis. The right IR in the right preset can be killer as well.

 

Tips for best results using Helix stock cabs (obvious but maybe worth repeating):

1. Before anything else find the cab and especially the mic type that sounds best to you. Selecting the right mic type will probably make the biggest difference in your cab's sound.
2. Adjust the mic distance, this makes a noticeable change in the perceived immediacy, tone and even "harshness" of the sound.
3. Experiment with early reflections
4. I often place only a 10k high cut in the cab block but nothing lower in the cab block. More severe cuts get placed in EQ blocks. Particularly if you are playing through an FRFR you may find it critical to place a low cut from about 70-120hz and a high cut from 5khz on up in an EQ block after the cab, adjusted to taste and depending on the preset and your monitoring equipment. If you have to you can go even higher than 120hz on the low cut. It is amazing how much cutting the lows will tighten up and sweeten your tone. The same thing applies to high cuts. Forget the khz number and cut until it sounds good. When it comes to high and low cuts if you have the energy and the time and can pull off a similar result with more surgical parametric cuts than do that instead. Using strategic parametric cuts may allow you to use no, or less dramatic, high/low cuts. The cuts described above apply primarily to playing through FRFRs at performance volume levels. Studio players as well as those who play through traditional guitar cabs or at low volumes may find these cuts too extreme or even entirely unnecessary.
5. Try dual cab or two different cabs on parallel paths and EQ one cab for the high end and one for a lower sound. Then mix to taste.
6. Leverage snapshots and assign parameters like the low and high cuts to them such that for example you can have a gentler high cut that allows more highs in a clean snapshot for extra sparkle. Your snapshot for your lead tone can be set to a more aggressive high cut for when you are digging in on a solo up the neck and don't want things to get shrill. Or you can do the reverse for muted chords and a solo that really cuts through the mix. You can even change cab parameters like mic type, mic distance, etc. from snapshot to snapshot. The key is taking advantage of snapshots to individually optimize amp/cab, effect, and EQ settings such that they match what you are trying to accomplish in that snapshot(rhythm, solo, etc.). As has been pointed out you can also switch between different IRs using snapshots.

[Lachdanan0121]

5 hours ago, themetallikid said:

Ahh, reading this opened up my eyes, I did not realize you could swap IR's via Snapshots...thought I had to run multiple IR blocks which made it more of a mess than a help. 

Oh yea, I don't do much in the way of snapshots, but I do a lot of automation with Helix Native.  

For one guitar solo I had the patch with  automation between 3 different IRs (for IR block A) in a parallel path. Block B was left alone.

I automated with some 3sigma IRs.  Block A was all the same cab, but 2 different mic positions, and switching between tube, and solid state versions.  It is hard to explain it but the differences are very subtle, but added to the dynamics a little. It made it less static sounding. Breathed extra life into the tone. 

 

Lots of cool stuff you can do.  

The rabbit whole of the Helix, (or audio engineering/mixing in general) is always deeper than one realizes. I try to make it where I learn something new about music, (and the industry) every couple of days. 

-------

About the HX Cabs, I can get some pretty good tones out of them as they are now. I think I get better results with IRs overall. That said if they added mic axis position parameter then I think the HX Cabs could really be a contender.  I find myself liking at least one of my IRs in the parallel chains to be position 3, 4, or 5. I think those are off axis.  If HX Cabs had that parameter the tonal capabilities of the onboard cabs for the Helix opens up quite significantly. 

[arkieboy]

22 hours ago, PeterHamm said:

 

Yup, and one of the BEST reasons to use an IR instead of a cab block imho.

 

(aha - I have got the hang of 'quote')

I manage to get the following into my preset template ...

• weeper wah
• deluxe comp
• volume pedal x2 (one for the parallel path 2b that takes the stereo output of my VG99 through the LT's FX return)
• hedgehog d9
• plexi brt
• essex a30, and switching to path 2a
• 1024 IR Block
• noise gate
• 70s chorus
• courtesan flange
• simple delay
• transistor tape
• dual delay
• glitz reverb

Most of my playing career I would have killed to have all that gear at once in a single guitar rig, a sound engineer who could have consistently mic-ed it up, and a roadie (hi Mikey!) to help move it around.  Now my whole rig lives in my backpack when I'm on my way to a gig.

[jasdadgad]

On 4/30/2018 at 4:46 PM, mileskb said:

 

I respond to this so often that I'm beginning to annoy myself.  It's all about axis !!!!  The helix cabs do not provide any ability to change the axis/mic position other than distance.  If you happen to like the sound of the helix cabs, it's probably because you like whatever axis (my guess is just off center, or maybe multi-mic).   This is a common spot that live sound guys use, so it's a familiar sound.   Easy to love it.   If however, you like the sound of certain cabs with the mic near the middle or edge of the cone...  or a combination of axis' and mics then really the only way to get there is with 3rd party IR's.     It's really that simple.  They all sound great.  But do they sound "right" for you?

 

 

You do realize that I (OP) posted my question nearly 3 years ago?

 

But thanks anyway.

[mileskb]

23 hours ago, jasdadgad said:

 

You do realize that I (OP) posted my question nearly 3 years ago?

 

But thanks anyway.

Well  no... no I did not :)