First live gig with Helix 2.0 - couple issues

[smythejmd]

Actually when I encountered the issue I though: "Damn that's irritating but yeah, that was to be expected. I hope they found a way to deal with this"

The I went to the forum to start a thread on it but found that someone beat me to it and the goofy workaround was suggested by someone.

Then I thought: "Great, a workaround for the time being Until Line6 six comes up with an elegant solution"

 

So yeah I think I understood the issue but didn't find it unexpected (damn, I'm being anal again :rolleyes: Sorry)

Apparently, we are equally anal and will simply continue to disagree. I think you are using "expected" in a way that isn't how I used it, nor is it consistent with an User Experience standard usage; I would "expect" that if they messed up integrating the expression controller toggling with snapshots, then this would be the issue, but that is just a bug expectation, not a User Experience expectation of proper behavior. The fact that people were surprised that the toggle state could go out of sync seems to indicate people were not "expecting" it.

 

I have a feeling actually that you guys aren't getting the issue. I posted a video on FB, and Chad as well as others immediately suggested to do a 9+10 reset, because they immediately interpreted it as buggy behavior.

[smythejmd]

I'm not sure I get the problem here. (Assuming you have no EXP 2 pedal or 'dummy plug' connected) if you want your Wah On/Off state to differ between snapshots, couldn't you simply NOT add a Volume block to your preset? Or, what if you remove the default Toe Switch assignment for the Wah and make a Bypass Assign to a FS 1- 10 for the Wah instead of the toe footswitch? In other words, if the issue is caused by the toe switch being 'shared' by the Wah and Vol, then wouldn't it resolve the problem by changing the default Bypass Assignment so that the Wah is not sharing the Toe Switch?

 

Or is there a Snapshots problem with the pedal controlling the Position parameter of the Wah? And if this is the issue, again, couldn't this be remedied by just changing the pedal assignment so that it is only controlling the Wah and not the Wah - Position or any other parameter?

 

Most Line 6 devices have always used this default behavior where the onboard pedal is 'shared' between Wah and Vol, and not shared when an EXP 2 pedal is connected, so it has always taken some similar planning to make sure your presets are configured accordingly for whether you have a 2nd pedal connected.

I'll have to link to the facebook post with the video. The issue is not what you described, nor do those workarounds help, since you are suggesting is completely abandoning use of the toe switch. The problem is not limited to wah and volume blocks.

 

The issue is that snapshots do track bypass states of blocks but *NOT* which controller the expression is assigned to (based on toggling the toe switch), which leads them to be out of sync, requiring workarounds to get them back in sync, a dummy plug, or simply abandoning the toe switch altogether.

 

If you don't have the issue, great. If you don't mind tap dancing or the available workarounds (or that workarounds are required), great. If you were pessimistic and expected that the two issues wouldn't be properly integrated, and you're fine with that, great. However, many of us are not in the same boat as you.

[smythejmd]

Anyways, I'm glad there is at least some sort of workaround. I'm going to get back to building a pedalboard case for my Helix. I'll leave the thread to other people.

[talwilkins]

Apparently, we are equally anal and will simply continue to disagree. I think you are using "expected" in a way that isn't how I used it, nor is it consistent with an User Experience standard usage; I would "expect" that if they messed up integrating the expression controller toggling with snapshots, then this would be the issue, but that is just a bug expectation, not a User Experience expectation of proper behavior. The fact that people were surprised that the toggle state could go out of sync seems to indicate people were not "expecting" it.

 

I have a feeling actually that you guys aren't getting the issue. I posted a video on FB, and Chad as well as others immediately suggested to do a 9+10 reset, because they immediately interpreted it as buggy behavior.

 

The fact that people people were surprised about the behaviour coils also mean thay don't fully grasp haw the Helix functions.

I, for one was not surprised by the behavoiour although I was a bit surprised Line6 hadn't caught it and provided a solution yet.

But hey, thats the way these things often work. they are human, so no biggy.

Yes, people telling you to do a 9+10 reset didn't get the issue, I agree there.

 

Analogy (attempt anyway): You buy a TV set. It has a volume button. Works just as you expect. Next you get your tv signal throuh internet with a special receiver, that has it's own remote with volume button. One nite befor you turn off the tv you turn the volume all the way down on your internet receiver. The next day you turn the tv on and find the volume is all the way down but you forgot that it's muted on the internet receiver and try to get the volume up with the TV remote. Doesn't work!! Is this a bug? or is it the expected behaviour? Would it be great if the system worked differently so it wouldn't matter which remote you use? Yes, but it's not a bug imho.

 

With Helix in the current configuration, you need to turn off the Wah before switching to another snapshot (if you don't have an external pedal connected to EXP2 or my goofy solution). That's the way the sysem works now. Is that ideal? Far from it, but it's not a bug.

In fact I'm sure the configuration also makes some things possible that some people would miss if they treated it as a bug and took this behaviour out.

That's why I think the answer is in giving us options to change the configuration so it works the way we want it to now bur also leave the possibility to leave just as is for other scenario's.

[smythejmd]

The analogy is off. Consider that the internet receiver is built into the TV and used the same remote. Imagine that you can change the volume when watching normal TV and when watching internet tv. However, when you switch from normal TV to internet TV and you haven't set the volume to the default 20db before switching, the volume buttons stop working until you press a variety of buttons or plug a cord into the back of your TV. Note that when switching to DVD, you don't have to do any of this to have the volume buttons work normally.

[talwilkins]

The analogy is off. Consider that the internet receiver is built into the TV and used the same remote. Imagine that you can change the volume when watching normal TV and when watching internet tv. However, when you switch from normal TV to internet TV and you haven't set the volume to the default 20db before switching, the volume buttons stop working until you press a variety of buttons or plug a cord into the back of your TV. Note that when switching to DVD, you don't have to do any of this to have the volume buttons work normally.

 

Youre analogy is off imho because you are starting from a situation where everything is built together from the start. In your scenario it would cetainly be a bug because there is no reason for the problem to exist there, with one remote and all the functionality there from the start. The functionality hasn't changed so why would it not work the way you expect it to?

 

In Helix this not the case. functionality has changed. Using the remote analogy, the Helix got another remote added and now has two remote systems. one the standard stomp switches that toggle one ore more blocks on and off. And another that recalls a snapshot bypass state of several blocks and parameters. And you can use them mixed together.

 

As far as I'm concerned there is just some functionality missing like also saving the EXP1/EXP2 state of the pedal with a snapshot. Still not a bug.

 

Do you also feel the fact that having one switch controlling more than one block can mess up with snapshots is also a bug?

[cveilleux]

Are saying the EXP1/EXP2 state should be saved along with the snapshot? Like when you bring up a snapshot, the expression pedal selection always goes to the saved value? Yeah, that certainly seems doable.

I think this would be a perfect solution.

 

I can understand everyone's perspective here about whether or not it's a bug.

 

But I think this one is a little tricky since there's a combination of factors controlling the bypass of the wah - the toe switch/exp 1 or 2/the snapshot. It's different with the wah too since there are multiple controllers (2-way switch plus expression) in one logical foot location. So I can see how it's not working as expected for some and also how it'd be touch for the developers to design how this should work.

 

From my perspective, there are definitely some songs where I could see, for example, finishing a solo on a lead snapshot with the wah engaged and wanting to get back to a no-wah verse or chorus just by changing the snapshot.

 

Right now I'm finding that the only way I can fix the wah state without leaving the preset and coming back to it is going back to the snapshot I was on, disengaging the wah, and then going back to the snapshot I was trying to use in the first place.

 

I think there are really 2 logical options here, and the way it works now isn't one of them since it can put your setup in an inconsistent state if you switch snapshots without disengaging the wah:

1. As Phil and others have suggested, save the EXP state with the snapshot. This could also be handy if you want a snapshot that gets wah out of the gate (hit a snapshot and start moving the expression pedal without triggering the toe switch), and it would also address the issue discussed.
2. The wah bypass would take into account the current state of EXP when switching snapshots. This would behave like a normal wah and amp setup. If you're on lead with the wah engaged and switch to another snapshot, wah would still be on regardless of whether it's normally bypassed or not on the snapshot. Just like without a Helix if you're on one channel on your amp with wah on and switch to another channel, the wah is still on and still works.

Perhaps this setting/behavior could be a per-patch or global setting so people could choose the option that they prefer.

[cveilleux]

And by the way, I really like the toe switch and that's part of the reason I switched from an M13 to the Helix (among a lot of other things). Kicking on wah for a little bit and turning it back off (like the verses in Dani California) is a lot easier with a toe switch than hitting a switch on the M13, getting your foot over to the external expression pedal, and then reversing that to turn it off. It's especially a pain when singing too.

 

So with a little more tweaking/options it'd be perfect.

[smythejmd]

Youre analogy is off imho because you are starting from a situation where everything is built together from the start. In your scenario it would cetainly be a bug because there is no reason for the problem to exist there, with one remote and all the functionality there from the start. The functionality hasn't changed so why would it not work the way you expect it to?

 

In Helix this not the case. functionality has changed. Using the remote analogy, the Helix got another remote added and now has two remote systems. one the standard stomp switches that toggle one ore more blocks on and off. And another that recalls a snapshot bypass state of several blocks and parameters. And you can use them mixed together.

 

As far as I'm concerned there is just some functionality missing like also saving the EXP1/EXP2 state of the pedal with a snapshot. Still not a bug.

 

Do you also feel the fact that having one switch controlling more than one block can mess up with snapshots is also a bug?

Actually, I'm coming to it from the point that everything is built together now. The fact that at some point it was not is irrelevant to a new user. Just update my example that a software update allowed the user to access internet TV. Everything else stays the same. Note, however, that is still irrelevant to the new user.

[robbieb61]

That would indeed be true if the behaviour was unexpected. Here this is not the case. The Helix behaved in this exact way before snapshots.

No it didn't.  At least not in practical use.

 

"Before" snapshots...If I had a preset with a crunch and a lead amp sound set up on one preset using footswitch control and the wah pedal acted EXACTLY like I expected it too. Like a "real" wah pedal would.

 

I could push the toe switch and have wah whenever I wanted it. Switch back and forth between amps and the wah was still on unless I turned it off (within a single preset).

And if I switched presets the wah would be "off" when I came back to the previous preset.

 

Now...with the ultra-cool snapshots (I LOVE them by the way)....I have 8 different sounds set up using 3 different amps all on one preset.  And if I use the wah on a lead it does NOT stay on until I turn it off when switching from one snapshot to another. It acts completely different than it did before. 

 

That's kind of the point that all of us are making about it. It doesn't "act" like any wah pedal on Earth  lol

 

This is why I am simply not going to be using the wah until LIne 6 has a chance to address that problem. 

I never use a volume pedal (I enjoy creating different tones with the volume control of the guitar itself)...so for now my expression pedal is useless for me.

 

But I do want to say: The snapshots are GREAT! Made the Helix so much more useable. The wah will get fixed and then all will be great!

[sheehanje]

No it didn't.  At least not in practical use.

 

"Before" snapshots...If I had a preset with a crunch and a lead amp sound set up on one preset using footswitch control and the wah pedal acted EXACTLY like I expected it too. Like a "real" wah pedal would.

 

I could push the toe switch and have wah whenever I wanted it. Switch back and forth between amps and the wah was still on unless I turned it off (within a single preset).

And if I switched presets the wah would be "off" when I came back to the previous preset.

 

Now...with the ultra-cool snapshots (I LOVE them by the way)....I have 8 different sounds set up using 3 different amps all on one preset.  And if I use the wah on a lead it does NOT stay on until I turn it off when switching from one snapshot to another. It acts completely different than it did before. 

 

That's kind of the point that all of us are making about it. It doesn't "act" like any wah pedal on Earth  lol

 

This is why I am simply not going to be using the wah until LIne 6 has a chance to address that problem. 

I never use a volume pedal (I enjoy creating different tones with the volume control of the guitar itself)...so for now my expression pedal is useless for me.

 

But I do want to say: The snapshots are GREAT! Made the Helix so much more useable. The wah will get fixed and then all will be great!

 

I agree with snapshots being great.   I had one solo that absolute depends on going right in with the wah, then going right back out to my normal rhythm channel.  I thought snapshots would be great for this - but looks like Line6 would need to either change the behavior or make an option to make the wah pedal act as I want it to.  For now I'm going to have a little tap dance and then have to remember to disengage the wah again before moving snapshots....

[phil_m]

I agree with snapshots being great.   I had one solo that absolute depends on going right in with the wah, then going right back out to my normal rhythm channel.  I thought snapshots would be great for this - but looks like Line6 would need to either change the behavior or make an option to make the wah pedal act as I want it to.  For now I'm going to have a little tap dance and then have to remember to disengage the wah again before moving snapshots....

 

There was someone else who brought this up on another thread. If you want to have this ability - entering a snapshot with the wah on, and exiting it with that wah turning off, I think there is a way to do it, and still have the wah available in the other snapshots... This is what I suggested:

 

One thing you could do for this particular snapshot where you want to have wah active when you go into the snapshot is to simply drop in another instance of your wah block and have it so that the first wah block (let's call it "Wah A") is still bypassed in this snapshot but the second instance ("Wah B") is on. Wah A will be controlled by EXP2 and activated by the toe switch. Wah B will be controlled by EXP1 and won't be assigned to any footswitch. Its bypass state will only be controlled by the snapshot. So when you enter this snapshot, Wah B will turn on (you'd also want to set the bypass state of the volume pedal to off in this snapshot), and then you can just control it. The main trick with this is that you'll want to make sure you don't use the toe switch while in this preset or you'll turn the volume block and the other wah block on and toggle to EXP2, and things will be misaligned...

[gunpointmetal]

assign the Wah to a specific snapshot and don't use the toe switch to activate it....if you hit Snapshot 4 and in the that one the wah is controlled by the default pedal and the wah on/off is controlled via snapshot, you don't have to use the toe switch, the wah is on when you hit the snapshot, off when you leave it, right? that seems to be how its working for me anyways. I have one snapshot with a 2 octave down pitch bend and when I click that one on, the same EXP 1 that was controlling my volume, now controls my pitch bend, but the volume pedal state goes to off, whammy goes to on, hit back to another snapshot with the on/off states switched and it seems to work just fine.

[talwilkins]

Actually, I'm coming to it from the point that everything is built together now. The fact that at some point it was not is irrelevant to a new user. Just update my example that a software update allowed the user to access internet TV. Everything else stays the same. Note, however, that is still irrelevant to the new user.

You do have a point here from the analogy point of view.

However in the case of the Helix, it's a software development not hardware like adding the remote afterwards.

From the point of view of a new user I see you're point that it would be perceived as a bug but from a development point of view I still think it's not a bug but a not completely developed system. It doesn't need a bug to be fixed but a new function needs to be added in order to make it possible that the Helix behaves as many people expect it to. Mind you what most people expect is not by definition correct or best.

[talwilkins]

 

No it didn't.  At least not in practical use.

 

"Before" snapshots...If I had a preset with a crunch and a lead amp sound set up on one preset using footswitch control and the wah pedal acted EXACTLY like I expected it too. Like a "real" wah pedal would.

 

I could push the toe switch and have wah whenever I wanted it. Switch back and forth between amps and the wah was still on unless I turned it off (within a single preset).

And if I switched presets the wah would be "off" when I came back to the previous preset.

 

It still does exactly that! as long as you do it the same way. You can't say it behaves differently than before when you're actually doing something you couldn't even do before.

It's like saying: The accelerator doesn't act the same as before after installing an auto pilot. Before the installment the speed would go all the way down when i took my foot off the pedal. Now, when the auto pilot is engaged the speed will stay constant at the set point. It's a bug!

 

Now...with the ultra-cool snapshots (I LOVE them by the way)....I have 8 different sounds set up using 3 different amps all on one preset.  And if I use the wah on a lead it does NOT stay on until I turn it off when switching from one snapshot to another. It acts completely different than it did before. 

 

Yes, you have the auto pilot engaged! if you want it to act exactly as before don't use the snapshots (auto pilot).

At least, that's how it is right now.

That doesn't mean in this case it couldn't be made possible to behave the way you want it to while using snapshots. I would certainly like that option.

 

That's kind of the point that all of us are making about it. It doesn't "act" like any wah pedal on Earth  lol

 

Well that could be because there are no other Wah pedals on earth that are actually digital replica's placed in the Helix's current snapshot system. The Helixes Wah pedals behave exactly like the should in the current snapshot system.

We just want the option to make the snapshot system to behave differently in order for us to use the Wah's the way we like to while using snapshots. You see, they don't need to change anything to the wah's so saying they don't behave as expected is not correct.

I't like saying: Hey, my mouse is not working as it used to after changing the settings to left handed. Now the left mouse button produced a context menu. It's a bug, we need to change the way the mouse behaves. No, you need to change the setting to right handed if you want it to behave the way you're used to.

 

This is why I am simply not going to be using the wah until LIne 6 has a chance to address that problem. 

I never use a volume pedal (I enjoy creating different tones with the volume control of the guitar itself)...so for now my expression pedal is useless for me.

But I do want to say: The snapshots are GREAT! Made the Helix so much more useable. The wah will get fixed and then all will be great!

 

Yes, I believe the issue will be addressed (sure hope so anyways).

In the meantime do yourself a favor and use the cheesy workaround, then the expression pedal does exactly what you want.

 

Sorry again for my anal behavior  :huh: 

[smythejmd]

You do have a point here from the analogy point of view.

However in the case of the Helix, it's a software development not hardware like adding the remote afterwards.

From the point of view of a new user I see you're point that it would be perceived as a bug but from a development point of view I still think it's not a bug but a not completely developed system. It doesn't need a bug to be fixed but a new function needs to be added in order to make it possible that the Helix behaves as many people expect it to. Mind you what most people expect is not by definition correct or best.

Actually, your analogy involved a hardware change. Mine did not, so you support my point in your last response.

 

You do realize that your explanation could be used to used to rationalize away any bug as part of a "not completely developed system"? Your argument has bothered me enough as I asked my fellow software r&d co-workers their opinion on your argument, and no one agreed. Unanimously, it was considered a defect.

[talwilkins]

Actually, your analogy involved a hardware change. Mine did not, so you support my point in your last response.

 

You do realize that your explanation could be used to used to rationalize away any bug as part of a "not completely developed system"? Your argument has bothered me enough as I asked my fellow software r&d co-workers their opinion on your argument, and no one agreed. Unanimously, it was considered a defect.

 

O.k. Let's then just agree to disagree! I do see your point of view now and agree to a point.

It's all academic anyway, we absolutely agree it's not the way it should be now and wether it should be considered a bug or not clearly is more an opinion than hard science. For the record, I have been working in sofware developement and other IT area's as well.

 

It was fun having the discussion though, I like to have a respectfull discussion and winning the argument is not my goal. Learning is! B)

[Meiannatee]

FYI, this behavior happens in the Pod HD500 as well when switching presets.

 

But yeah, the first thing I thought of was that there should be an option on the Pod to save exp1&2 states in the preset. Snapshots on the Helix should do the same thing.

[videoteacher78]

Man, I have this same problem most of you have and it's really the only problem I have!  Hopefully there's a fix soon. I'm lucky enough to be able to use Helix Edit on stage while I play, so if it gets confused I can fix it easily enough, but I'd rather not have to even think of it.  My Wah sometimes switches to Expression 2 and then my Volume goes to Expression 1.  When it's supposed to be the other way around.

 

I'd also like one more feature on the scribble strip above the pedal instead of displaying Expression 1 and Expression 2 at the same time, let us have the choice of only displaying one or the other according to which state it is in.  I know one can change the name of what it displays, but it changes it for both, regardless of which state it is.  I'd like it to display Wah when I'm on Expression 1, and then display Volume when in Expression 2.