I think I finally have it!

[jmp22684]

Nothing extremely useful here, Just finally got the tones nailed!

 

Went from day 2 with the helix sounding like it was in a box to this.

 

I have gotten pretty good tones from it, but I am that tone hunter. I came from tube amps and love the dynamics you get from them. I bought a tube preamp and put it in a loop between amp and cab blocks: No difference WHAT SO EVER! Just to make sure it wasn't me I set it up to turn the loop on and off as I played a song and had others listen... The MP tube pre did nothing. Using that as a DI box for a bass now, so no loss there.

 

Still editing, reading and reading and reading... These forums, audio engineering books, sites, videos, frequency analysis, wave forums, getting worse and worse on the guitar because of spending so much time with this instead of practicing.

 

Coming really close all the time, but never quite there.

 

I should note that I only use 2 different amp models for 4 basic sounds: clean, clean on edge of break up, crunch, modern high gain. I do have 30 patches but only for the reason of ordering them to our setlist to avoid clicking around too much. They are all basically the exact same thing but effects vary a little bit. Changing amp models all the time would just be a nightmare to try and run sound for.... The SMG Studio shirt says it all (excuse language) "Having 40 patches doesn't make you a good guitar player. It makes you an lollipop."

 

So my time has been spent just trying to find that one or two amps, IRs and EQ setting that. are. perfect. period.

 

Try out a few new things this last Saturday with a few new IRs and reprogram the entire setlist.

 

Who shows up to the gig? A whole slew of the classic rock and blues members from the local clubs. We're talking old school fantastic players that have the kalamazoo les pauls, the vintage tube amps to die for... They sound good... Great!... and can be a bit critical about setup and gear choices.

 

Finish up the set they arrived during and get informed that they want to talk to me.

 

The compliments were flying in!

 

How did you get that sound with out an amp up there?

The dynamics where amazing! Sounded just like a tube amp!

The mix was perfect! You could hear everyone perfectly and the guitar wasn't over bearing.

More and more compliments....

 

Not to toot the horn... But.... YEAH.... GOING TO TOOT AWAY HERE!

 

Its been 3 months now and with my old band/old rig I used to get compliments like "best guitarist I have ever heard live!" (yeah I'm allowed to be proud of that!)

 

Since the new group and equipment change I wasn't practicing so much and still dinking around tweaking ... Still got compliments for the new group... But... "you guys sound great, your singer is amazing!"

 

Yeah thanks.... And in the back of my head ... "Bite me" .... I do have to admit though our singer is truely exceptional. One of the best singers I have ever worked with! And we joke plenty about it.

 

So for the first time at this last show after some new methods I was trying and IRs. Someone steps outside, "the guitar was amazing!" he looked at the singer "you're and excellent singer too"

 

I shot a look to the singer and said "HA!" ... Its been a small running joke now.

 

I run a very slight 10 ms delay/mod (REALLY slow chorus speed VERY low depth) after one of the IRs... Gives it a HUGE 3d sound that separates beautifully and leaves room down the middle for the singer. Ran that into a mono monitor and it sounded like crap! Haha... GRRRR... Went to the board and un-linked the channels, killed the right channel feed to the monitors... Much better!

 

Pop a 10 ms delay on one side with a full wet mix and then a mono block after it. Thats what it sounded like.

 

Now I will add this: I was running my PA system that night. So I have the advantage that all my tweaking is done on the same system at the same volume it will be heard at a venue when I run sound. I also always multi track record us with the board and computer: PreSonus RM32ai. So when I tweak the patches I am doing it with a recording of the full band piping through the PA so I'll know exactly how I sit in the mix. Not everyone has the same gear and access to this ability. That also means I get scared to death every time I have to play through a PA that isn't mine. I didn't get a massive PA but I did get a GOOD PA. All new, all digital, firewire, computer run, $7000 PA system.... It certainly isn't top of the line as this is a self powered system consisting of 2 PRX715s and 2 PRX718xlfs. Really didn't want to screw around with also needing to set up power amps and crossovers at every show. I setup up the speaker placements (!!!!!!crucial!!!!!!! ... And please for the love of god... CENTER YOUR SUBS!!! Never and I mean never put one on each side just because it looks good and its what everyone else does... Look up power alley... I played a show with split subs a couple weeks back and the low end on stage was deafening! And at the same time people to the far left and right of the audience had no bass... Center... Center... Center!!!!) then I set up the board while the rest of the band runs power and wires, do yourself and band mates a favor and print off a sheet marking every channel and wire in the PA to an easy to read table. This was the first time I didn't set the whole system up myself, they worked off of my channel, mains, monitor assignment list and it went flawlessly. We unloaded, set up the PA, setup our gear and sound checked in under an hour easily. It can only get faster as this was the first time splitting setup tasks for the PA. I believe we could actually have this system setup in 20 minutes. Just plotted a power graph as well to utilize the power conditioner myself and the bass player have on each side of the stage to run full power to all units with 2 cables and two center stage bricks.

 

Back on topic... Can you say A.D.D?!?!?

 

So seeing a system that looks like it was put together from craigslist and knowing I need to rely on it scares me pretty bad. AND... I don't have an amp anymore. I sold all my amps, two guitars (even my old gibson firebird), ect to buy this PA and Helix. Because with the Helix I don't really need an amp. But it still makes me nervous. At least if I had an FRFR amp I could pop a mic on it and then now exactly how its sounding. That isn't happening ANY TIME SOON! Finish paying down the PA system the next thing is a good wireless IEM system which will be an arm and a leg... And then an automated lighting system programmed with the computer and controlled with the helix.... New guitar equipemt is not in my future.

 

 

Anyways!!!! Enough of this rant!!!

 

I am just really happy finally and wantes to talk about it... Because my wife is sick of hearing about it.

 

I know?! Why would she not want to hear all about my Helix settings?!

I even chased her through the house once, "but wait! I . I have more explaining to do!"

 

it was rathee comical...

 

.. The moral here is that if you aren't getting your holy grail tube tone from the helix then you really only have two options. Spend the next 3 months reading, learning, tweaking, deleting, listening, reading, popping in and out of audio forums, ect... OR... get a tube amp.

 

Also a great deal came from hunting for the correct IR.... once I got into that it was gold. A lot of that fizz, shrilly, bassy, etc can be fixed with just the right IR. I must admit that finding the correct IR basicallu nulled the EQ learning I have been doing. I currently have no parametric on many blocks. The occasional 10 band or cali to pull a little 2.2 or 4k out if using an effect that makes things a bit brittle... But other then that the only EQ is a high or low cut and in this instance is used more as an effect with a really high low cut to produce that grainy AM radio sound.

 

It isn't the HELIX ... it is fully capable!!!!

 

Again... Incase that wasnt heard... The helix is fully and completely capable...

 

Just... Not out of the box. Absolutely not out of the box.

 

I also have the advantage of playing for a living... So 3 months of reading and tweaking was a solid 3 months of learning and experimenting... Not a little fiddling when I got out of work.

 

 

Sorry for all the babble and distractions.... I definitely rant on and on and on on on on on.....

[taylorbeats]

So in summary-left right feed +10 ms delay/chorus on one side?

[spikey]

Good story! I do think Helix can replace tube amps in the studio easier than on stage, but it's possible to do both with a little effort as you have done. BTW, care to mention where you got those IR's you are so proud of? Thanks!

[DustyF92]

Great to hear. I'm also a full time musician so I'm in the same tweaking stage you were. I love hearing stories like this as it makes me think I too can do it (although I think I'm on my way!)

[laxtlo]

AND IR´s are ? :D we have to go for commercials.....

[jmp22684]

LOL!!

 

IRs? no I thought I would just talk about how happy I have been with the sound rather than actually giving up any techniques

 

Okay, a lot of the IR's I have been using I found here:

http://bedroomproducersblog.com/2010/10/01/free-sample-shootout-6-best-free-guitar-cabinet-impulse-responses/

 

I like some of these a lot:

http://cabs.kalthallen.de/

 

I will reluctantly admit that I have caved a couple times (2 to be exact) and bought packs from .... crap I can't recall at the moment. The two guys you always read about selling packs.

 

I thought they were pretty good but didn't get too much out of them as they were pretty much setup the same way I have already been running it and one of them I just wasn't really thrilled with at all... the other sounded good but was as though it was designed to be sold to the person EQing in their mother's basement at low volumes.... Just WAY WAY WAY too much bottom end if brought up to stage volumes. Kind of a waste of money to me in that aspect... however! One of them came with some IR's as well which I have been playing with a little bit so it isn't a total loss and the IRs are pretty good! Oh and one had some good acoustic IRs... to me that alone was worth the price of the pack so I don't feel like I wasted any money in that I am using some of what I payed for and in the end its a product with parts that have benefited me. It was over all looked at by me as a learning opportunity.  

 

 

Check out the links at the bedroom producers blog for some free IR's. I haven't gone through everything I have found yet but did enjoy using "020b-AT4050-V30-4x12" which was found in the IR bundle from "cabs.Kalthallen.de" - just as an example... there are plenty of good ones. If I remember correctly I had to put a cali Q Graphic on there and dial back the  .... ummmm.... one second.... 

 

Intermission music while I try to dig up a patch:

 

 

<_<  :(  :blink:  :huh:  :wacko:  :unsure:  :o  :rolleyes:  < --- emotional states while searching 

 

Okay:

Cali Q Graphic

80Hz     ..........................   -7.6

240Hz   ..........................   -2.9

750Hz   ..........................   +0.5 or zero.... I probably just accidentally clicked it and thought "close enough to zero"

2200Hz ..........................   -2.0

6600Hz ..........................   -3.1

 

1024-sample IR:

Low Cut   ..................  80Hz

High Cut  .................. 7.5kHz

 

I have been using two of those blocks with a short delay with no feedback after it. 10 or 15 ms .... experiment and see what you like. Really REALLY important to set the merge block after this to Pan A and B hard Left and Right.

 

Using the bogner amp models and boogie. I like the Mark IV Lead but don't really use it. I try to stay on a single amp for one type of sound and not futz around too much. Gotta keep it easy on the sound guys or you're going to make some enemies and/or look like an idiot. I really try my best to make sure every single thing on the board falls in the same frequency range and volumes... and don't forget all about perceived volume with different frequencies.

 

For some cleans I just dial the gain ALL the way back.... ( 0.3 - 0.5 depending on the amp) Others I actually enjoy the Divided Duo quite a bit!! nice punch with a well set compressor before it... also REALLY REALLY depends on how you set the drives on this amp. Picking dynamics can be heard so well and is just a beautiful experience from a modelling unit.

 

Classic crunch I use for "Run To You" by Bryan Adams for example is the Interstate Zed with a screamer in front. .... Heck, been putting a screamer in front of most of my distorted sounds since the HD500 and DT50... I suppose I am on auto pilot.

 

 

Essentially at the moment my setup is:

 

Clean: German Mahadeva LOW LOW LOW gain or Divided Duo (moving all patches to the divided duo I think, just haven't gotten around to it yet)

Clean/barely barely crunch: See above

Classic crunch: Interstate Zed (screamer in front)

Modern Gain: German Mahadeva

 

I am kinda stuck between the Centaur and the screamer as far as what I want in front of the amp blocks... Really like both a lot.

 

Any ways I hope some of that was useful...

 

One of these days I'll have to toss together something showing the full setup.

[Thurston9]

Great read and inspiring!

[DunedinDragon]

Personally I'm a bit skeptical when it comes to free downloadable IR's.  Even some of the more well known vendors of IR's don't do a very good job of capture or even document the process by which they captured it.  To me the test of a good IR is how little you need to tweak it to get the sound you want.  If the creator of the IR has the right equipment and dedicates the right amount of time and energy to creating all the various mic and placement options on a cabinet, and capturing them into indvidual IR's, you should be able to find a variation that requires little more than tweaking of the bass, middle, treble and maybe presence to get you what works for you.

 

The thing is that IR's aren't magic.  They're only as good as the care that was taken in setting up the mics and placement for capturing them.  No single mic and mic placement will fit every situation or preference.

[jmp22684]

Personally I'm a bit skeptical when it comes to free downloadable IR's.  Even some of the more well known vendors of IR's don't do a very good job of capture or even document the process by which they captured it.  To me the test of a good IR is how little you need to tweak it to get the sound you want.  If the creator of the IR has the right equipment and dedicates the right amount of time and energy to creating all the various mic and placement options on a cabinet, and capturing them into indvidual IR's, you should be able to find a variation that requires little more than tweaking of the bass, middle, treble and maybe presence to get you what works for you.

 

The thing is that IR's aren't magic.  They're only as good as the care that was taken in setting up the mics and placement for capturing them.  No single mic and mic placement will fit every situation or preference.

 

I definitely found that I enjoyed some of the free ones and that others where extremely difficult to work with. Some I really really needed to dial out some of the low end. They sounded great at home with the PA but at the time I didn't bring it up to a stage level. Now when we went and played out live the first time with that particular IR the bottom end was WAY too high.... and I had bass controls at about zero... palm mute a chord and SUBS RATTLED THE WINDOWS. That is where I had to pull that much low end out with those cali q settings. The only reason I stuck with it was because it had a very full sound compared to others that just had a thinner response. Even now I like where I have everything but it is a little lacking in response to things like a heavy palm mute during a modern rock song, but I don't want to dial up the low end because when trying to force something that just isn't in the response of the cabinet you only start to muddy things up a bit.

 

In your opinion what are some of the ABSOLUTE BEST vendor IRs that you have come across? Ones that required little to no tweaking when running in conjunction with amps like the German Mahadeva?

[jmp22684]

I was just reading through various new posts. I have been watching and reading these forums for some time constantly looking for tricks.

 

I saw that you prefer the OwnHammer stuff. I just downloaded their demo Mesa set and will give it a shot when the wife and boy wake up.... Or.... Maybe I could just fire up the PA system and let it rip at 7:21 am on my wife's day off?!?!

[DunedinDragon]

I was just reading through various new posts. I have been watching and reading these forums for some time constantly looking for tricks.

 

I saw that you prefer the OwnHammer stuff. I just downloaded their demo Mesa set and will give it a shot when the wife and boy wake up.... Or.... Maybe I could just fire up the PA system and let it rip at 7:21 am on my wife's day off?!?!

 

Yes, I was very impressed with the OwnHammer  IR's.  I actually found that I've been able to ditch pretty much all of the EQ tweaking I had been doing to get my sound dialed in for the PA once I started using the OH IR's.  It takes a while to go through all of the various mic, mic mixes, and speaker variations, but it's been well worth it.  I still expect to have to do some more of that, but by and large I've settled on about five IR variations that seem to serve my needs so far.

 

Deluxe Reverb 1x12:  C12R OH2-05 which is a Jensen speaker using a Telefunken MD-421 and a Royer 121 ribbon mic at about the speaker mid point.

Vox 2x12 :  Blue OH1-05 which is the Celestion Alnico Blue speakers using a SM-57 and a Royer 121 ribbon mic at speaker mid point.

Mesa 4x12:  V60 SP2-05 which is a Celestion Vintage 30 speakers using a multi-mic configuration at speaker mid-point

Marshall 4x12: EV-MIX SP2-05 which is blend of Electrovoice speakers in a multi-mic configuration at speaker mid point

Marshall 4x12:  EV-MIX CUT-05 which is the blend of EV speakers with an on-axis and an off-axis mix of SM-57's at speaker mid-point.

 

I've used these variations in combination with Hi-Watt, Deluxe Reverb, Tweed Bassman, Roland Jazz Chorus, Marshall Plexi Bright amp models using a Les Paul standard, Strat, and Gretsch Silver Falcon all with excellent results.  My rig consists of a Yamaha DXR-12 stage monitor and direct out to the band PA which is a QSC KLA-12 line array system with KW-181 subs.  Just to give you some reference points.  Hopefully you'll find that info useful.

[jmp22684]

how many of those kla12s are you running on each side. Thats quite the setup. Subs are pretty comparable to the ones I've got... But holy crap those mains!

 

Part of me wishes I went line array when I bought these. Feel like I need to push the tops pretty hard sometimes. Not as loud as I had hoped, and with their coverage I can't really try to array them with another set. Meaning I'd have to take a hit and sell to buy more... But that isn't happening any time soon at all!

 

How are you mounting those array speakers? Have a fast setup solution? Would think its a bit for a mobile system.

 

I wouldn't mind discussing gain setups either if you're ever interested.

 

At the moment I ran pink noise and brought the main fader to about clipping. Set the output gain on the board, RM32ai, at about 2 o'clock and then ran the mains to where the limit light just start to flash and backed it off a touch. I figured with this method I could see the main fader clip before the speakers do in order to keep things safe. I know this doesn't take any frequency spikes into consideration, but thought about a soft compressor on the main to help with that.

 

I am still learning setup techniques.

[DunedinDragon]

how many of those kla12s are you running on each side. Thats quite the setup. Subs are pretty comparable to the ones I've got... But holy crap those mains!

 

Part of me wishes I went line array when I bought these. Feel like I need to push the tops pretty hard sometimes. Not as loud as I had hoped, and with their coverage I can't really try to array them with another set. Meaning I'd have to take a hit and sell to buy more... But that isn't happening any time soon at all!

 

How are you mounting those array speakers? Have a fast setup solution? Would think its a bit for a mobile system.

 

I wouldn't mind discussing gain setups either if you're ever interested.

 

At the moment I ran pink noise and brought the main fader to about clipping. Set the output gain on the board, RM32ai, at about 2 o'clock and then ran the mains to where the limit light just start to flash and backed it off a touch. I figured with this method I could see the main fader clip before the speakers do in order to keep things safe. I know this doesn't take any frequency spikes into consideration, but thought about a soft compressor on the main to help with that.

 

I am still learning setup techniques.

 

We run two stacks basically.  Each stack has a KW181 base with two KLA12's pole mounted on top.  And you're right.  It's a LOT to setup.  But we have a stage crew of about 4 guys that help set things up, so it goes pretty fast and everything is in rollable cases so moving them isn't too bad.

 

With the type of wattage we're talking about with these guys we end up running the top units (that targets the rear of the room) at about 3 o'clock and the bottom units for the front of the space at 1:30.  Of course this means we rarely run very high on the master fader.  Even at large outdoor events we've never had to go any higher than -30 below unity, or about 1/3.  We probably need to adjust that one of these days to get better range on the master fader, but it seems to work fine so we've never messed with it.  At least I know the signal has more than enough headroom to never have to worry about hitting the limiter on the speakers.

 

As far as gain staging the individual channels, we pretty much follow the levels we've found work best in the studio mixes, so that keeps the channel faders all set at unity with a close to ideal mix with all the instruments and voices.  We have a total of 7 people in the band.  Drummer, bass, lead and rhythm guitar, harmonica/singer, and two female singers.  Not the easiest group to move, but we've been together for about 7 years so we kind of have it down to a science.

[WickedFinger]

I got like 128 of free IRs from all over the place, number of tones I liked the sound of ZIP.

Most are done with a 57 and I hate that bright sound. At least with the hybrids in the Helix I can use the mic I like. I know many gate the Helix cabs but I have learned to get good sound from them or at least the few I use. 

EQ is a subjective thing and all, but note sometime how the Mesa V notch is usually used on the Cali EQ. They cut 750Hz as that is usually low mid mud. Many of my gain pedals boost low end at 80Hz and the BBE processes at 50Hz so cutting low and cutting the high end makes the guitar very narrow mid range sounding. Not my cup of tea really. I have been getting great tones out of usual chain of events. Does anyone know which IRs to buy that are not just a bunch of SM57 stuff and the Helix is capable of using? No IRs I have tried can change the mic. What is the deal with the SM57 anyway, Shure created the 57 for vocals and the SM58 for instrument mic'ing. Yet its always a 57 everywhere, I do not like that sound. I have come to hate the whole IR thing what a pain. Did L6 really intend for the hybrid cabs in the Helix to sound bad, or, is it just many adjust everything badly or perhaps use the good old 57 to have a nice mid range, no bass, tinny cab sound. 

[DunedinDragon]

I got like 128 of free IRs from all over the place, number of tones I liked the sound of ZIP.

Most are done with a 57 and I hate that bright sound. At least with the hybrids in the Helix I can use the mic I like. I know many gate the Helix cabs but I have learned to get good sound from them or at least the few I use. 

EQ is a subjective thing and all, but note sometime how the Mesa V notch is usually used on the Cali EQ. They cut 750Hz as that is usually low mid mud. Many of my gain pedals boost low end at 80Hz and the BBE processes at 50Hz so cutting low and cutting the high end makes the guitar very narrow mid range sounding. Not my cup of tea really. I have been getting great tones out of usual chain of events. Does anyone know which IRs to buy that are not just a bunch of SM57 stuff and the Helix is capable of using? No IRs I have tried can change the mic. What is the deal with the SM57 anyway, Shure created the 57 for vocals and the SM58 for instrument mic'ing. Yet its always a 57 everywhere, I do not like that sound. I have come to hate the whole IR thing what a pain. Did L6 really intend for the hybrid cabs in the Helix to sound bad, or, is it just many adjust everything badly or perhaps use the good old 57 to have a nice mid range, no bass, tinny cab sound. 

 

I think the reason they're free is because it's someone in the basement creating an IR and the only mic they have is a SM-57.  I have to admit I felt somewhat like you do until recently.  It seemed like every IR I tried wasn't much of an improvement over what I could get with the stock cabinets until I downloaded the free OwnHammer Mesa 4x12 and started experimenting with it's different variations and setups.

 

Actually most of the reputable folks doing this have a range of mic's, mic mixes and mic placements.  One of the reasons I've gone with the OwnHammer IR's is that each cabinet pack contains a ton of various configurations with different types of mics.  Yeah, they have a SM-57, probably because it's the most used,  But they have a nice range of other mics as well in dynamic, condenser, and ribbon designs that are used in different combinations in various placements on the cabinet.  I've pretty much been able to unload myself from all of the EQ'ing once I found the configurations that worked for me.  Because the variety is so large, it takes a while to run through them and audition them, and I've come to the conclusion I may be adding variations over time if I feel I need it for some patch or another.  But I honed mine down to about six variations right now across 5 different cabinets that seem to meet most if not all of my needs.