Tap Tempo strangeness (Set to Note Divisions)

[elfritobandito]

Hi all,

 

I have been on the Line 6 band wagon for many years. Started on a POD 2.0, the XT, HD500, DT25 and a Variax 700 somewhere in there. I just finally upgraded to Helix, L2T and JTV-69S. I'm loving it so far.

 

One oddity with the Helix is that I have a hard time setting the tap tempo to what I want using the footswitch. At practice last night, no matter how many times I tapped, how much pressure I used, how quickly I tapped or just how generally careful I was to make sure my taps were accurate, I had a low success rate of getting it to come out the way I wanted. I do have it set to note divisions so this isn't the same issue that I found when searching the forums this morning. I simply feel that it just isn't picking up my desired tempo accurately.

 

Has anyone else had issues like this? Am I missing something stupid?

 

Thanks,

[jeffster2021]

I have the same issue.  It doesn't seem as easy as older Line 6 modelers.  It sometimes takes me 3 or 4 tries to get the tempo that I want.  It's not a faulty switch either.  There is something different about the Tap Tempo on this unit for sure.  Maybe there is some trick that I'm missing.

[phil_m]

Some of the delay models (both the Bucket Brigade models, I believe) have a maximum delay time that matches the originals they were modeled after. So if you tap in a tempo that's longer than the max, it gives a tempo that will be a subdivision of the tempo you tapped but within the max delay time of the model. Ben Adrian talks about it here:

 

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/line6-helix.1586637/page-594#post-20724188

 

Hi there! I know exactly what this is.

Bucket Brigade is a model of the Boss DM-2. Maximum delay time on a boss DM-2 is about 300 ms. The Line 6 Bucket Brigade submodel is fully interactive between delay time and frequency response and if the time is set longer than about 300ms in this model, the result is really crappy delay resolution with audible clocking artifacts. Therefor we limited the range on this model to match the real world equivalent. Sidebar: The Adriatic Delay is basically the DM-2 with adjustable bucket brigade chip size and up to 1.8 seconds of delay time.

So, back to the tap tempo issue. One of our DSP guys came up with this idea of how to handle tap tempo when the time tapped is longer than the maximum allowed delay time for the model. The tap-tempo logic will intelligently divide the time. So, in the bucked brigade model, if you tapped a 500ms delay time in and had the unit set to 1/4 note, the Helix would realize that 500ms is out of range and put in a 250ms delay time, so you would still be in tempo, but also in delay time range. This trick is especially noticeable on the Bucket Brigade model since it has the shortest delay range.

The idea behind the scenes is that the tap tempo should always be on tempo, and if someone puts in a time too long, the Helix will give you a result that is on tempo rather than just setting the a probably off tempo maximum time value.

Cheers!

 

[elfritobandito]

Yeah, I did see that post about the specific delays with shorter times when searching the forums. Thanks for referencing that though. I'm using the tape delay and I also found that whether the song was faster or slower, I simply had a hard time getting the Helix to pick up the exact tempo that I was going for (or close to it).

[phil_m]

I'm not exactly sure how the tap tempo handles more than two taps. I know on some Line 6 products, if you tapped three times, the tempo would be set to whatever the average was of the gaps. I haven't really looked into it all that much.

[HonestOpinion]

I'm not exactly sure how the tap tempo handles more than two taps. I know on some Line 6 products, if you tapped three times, the tempo would be set to whatever the average was of the gaps. I haven't really looked into it all that much.

 

I believe I also remember reading that the Helix only uses two taps instead of averaging multiples. If that is the case that is an area that could bear improvement.

[duncann]

Recently, I discovered that sending Helix a specific tempo via midi (cc64) does not always produce the same result. For example, if you send 96, sometimes the tempo would be 96.(plus or minus about 4), although sometimes it would be exact. Something does seem to be off a little with tap tempo. Don't know if what I experienced is related to what the OP is talking about, but thought I'd mention it.

[elfritobandito]

I believe I also remember reading that the Helix only uses two taps instead of averaging multiples. If that is the case that is an area that could bear improvement.

 I seem to remember this as well as I naturally tap multiple times to get the best outcome. Since I was having trouble, I did also try tapping only twice and I don't feel the result was much different. It's just so odd because it feels like it's a real chore whereas in the past it was super easy.

[elfritobandito]

Ok, I finally was able to play again since I originally posted this and test some things. I had a gig last night and made sure I only tapped twice instead of multiple times. This did seem to produce a much better result. The couple of times it didn't work quite right I think were incomplete taps. So that seems to lend credence to the idea of tapping twice instead of a bunch of times.

 

On another note, I feel like there is a slight delay before the new tempo starts flashing. It can really throw you off if you aren't paying close attention. So if you tap along with a drum beat, your flashes may be the right tempo but not line up with the notes. I think that was part of the confusion for me.

[jbuhajla]

Also keep in mind that if you are set to something like dotted 1/8th, you generally tap quarter notes to set the tempo, but the LED flashes what the dotted 1/8th repeats are. It does not flash the quarter notes that you tapped. 

[phil_m]

Also keep in mind that if you are set to something like dotted 1/8th, you generally tap quarter notes to set the tempo, but the LED flashes what the dotted 1/8th repeats are. It does not flash the quarter notes that you tapped. 

 

Actually, no, the tap tempo LED always flashes to what the current BPM is. The thing is you can easily have multiple effects in a preset with the time or rate value set to different note subdivisions.

[erniedenov]

I believe I also remember reading that the Helix only uses two taps instead of averaging multiples. If that is the case that is an area that could bear improvement.

 

 

 I seem to remember this as well as I naturally tap multiple times to get the best outcome.

 

 

Ok, I finally was able to play again since I originally posted this and test some things. I had a gig last night and made sure I only tapped twice instead of multiple times. This did seem to produce a much better result. The couple of times it didn't work quite right I think were incomplete taps. So that seems to lend credence to the idea of tapping twice instead of a bunch of times.

 

That's good to know as I naturally tend to tap about 4 times. Guess I'll have to retrain myself... and concentrate on those two taps being dead accurate!

[jbuhajla]

Actually, no, the tap tempo LED always flashes to what the current BPM is. The thing is you can easily have multiple effects in a preset with the time or rate value set to different note subdivisions.

Oops, my Flashback X4 did that, not my Helix...

[weens]

Just resurrecting this thread to see if you (or anyone) found a solution to this at all?

 

I got a new Helix LT recently, and am having the exact same infuriating problem! I really rely on tap tempo a lot, and also had an hd500, which was rock solid tap tempo-wise.

 

This Helix LT however, seems to have a mind of its own with regards to registering the tempo that you tapped in.

 

 

I doubt that it's an issue with the actual switch itself (could be wrong tho)....the reason I say this is that if you touch the tempo switch, and watch the bpm number as you tap the switch, you can literally see every tap changing the number. This number tho just turns out to be really bizarre sometimes (60bpm when you actually tapped in a fast tempo of 150bpm for example). Software issue? hardware issue? hard to say (I'm leaning more towards software)....... was just curious as to whether you eventually found a solution :)

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

I have been on the Line 6 band wagon for many years. Started on a POD 2.0, the XT, HD500, DT25 and a Variax 700 somewhere in there. I just finally upgraded to Helix, L2T and JTV-69S. I'm loving it so far.

 

One oddity with the Helix is that I have a hard time setting the tap tempo to what I want using the footswitch. At practice last night, no matter how many times I tapped, how much pressure I used, how quickly I tapped or just how generally careful I was to make sure my taps were accurate, I had a low success rate of getting it to come out the way I wanted. I do have it set to note divisions so this isn't the same issue that I found when searching the forums this morning. I simply feel that it just isn't picking up my desired tempo accurately.

 

Has anyone else had issues like this? Am I missing something stupid?

 

Thanks,

[erniedenov]

I've found that if you tap 2 or 3 times, it works. More than that, you get weirdness, like half the tempo you wanted or at least something much slower. I've gotten used to it at this point and I tap 3 times, but I've never seen a tap tempo behave like this before.

[weens]

yeah  interesting. I've had a lot of back and forth with Line 6 in a support ticket, and as it stands, the guy is literally telling me something along the lines of "if you tap 3 or 4 times, it may work. and even then it's not instant sometimes". unbelievable! I honestly think he has no clue and is just talking out of his lollipop, but regardless....... to think that this awful tap tempo behaviour is actually by design absolutely nuts! haha.

 

First of all, no other tap tempo device (multieffect or traditional pedal) works like that.......i've had all sorts of devices, ranging from the pod X3, pod HD500, chase bliss gravitas, strymon timeline, disaster area smartclock....NONE are unreliable by design, or require any crazy voodoo preconditions for tap tempo to function.....and ALL of them work with tap tempo as expected. as they should..... and frankly, i can't even believe I'm having to say these things to a support guy at Line 6! This is like bread and butter guitar effects 101 material.

 

Secondly, who in their right mind would actually design tap tempo to work this way? As soon as any normal person using this in a real world gigging scenario would want to tap a different tempo mid song to hit a key point for example, you can't seriously expect them to tap 3 or 4 times in THE most particular manner, and maybe...just maybe the tempo MAY change..... and by then you've missed the moment. I'm just gobsmacked that Line 6 would let this slide if this is really how it was designed....

 

 

I've found that if you tap 2 or 3 times, it works. More than that, you get weirdness, like half the tempo you wanted or at least something much slower. I've gotten used to it at this point and I tap 3 times, but I've never seen a tap tempo behave like this before.

[jbuhajla]

I've found that if you tap 2 or 3 times, it works. More than that, you get weirdness, like half the tempo you wanted or at least something much slower. I've gotten used to it at this point and I tap 3 times, but I've never seen a tap tempo behave like this before.

Yep. I only tap twice. If that didn't get it, I wait a little bit then tap twice again. It can be frustrating sometimes. Sometimes I just save a preset dedicated for a song at a particular BPM so I don't have to worry about tapping.