I love my Helix for bass, but I su*k at it...

[CallMeNop]

Hi guys !

I have a question.. I use Native since it's out, and this things make me go for a Helix. I'm a bass player only.

I love this piece of gear, really! To play in my DAW with a headphone, or in a FRFR cab, it's perfect. I'm a "no amp" guy, and want to do everythin with my Helix. The sounds you can get with it are pretty convincing to me, but i'm so bad at it...
Everytime I go for a new patch, the tone I get is so bad (for my taste). Not a gear problem, I am the problem. I can't make something balanced, it's either too much distortion, too much high, too much low etc...

 

The tone I'm for are quite "complicated". I mean, it's not Bass "into amp and let's go". I take the route of players like Justin Chancellor/Billy Sheehan/Geddy (I don't speak about their tone, ut the way they achieve it) who split their rig in 2/3 paths.

My bass is a Warwick Thumb (German made), so no problem with it also... No it's just that I can't make good patches.

 

Am I the only one, who can't stay on a patch I made, for a long time because after a 2 hours play I think it is so bad? Have you got tips for me? I know the CustomTone is here, but for bass there aren't so many preset, and most of them aren't absolutely not close to what i'm looking for.

I also have solid knowledge about gear/audio etc... I understand what I do, I know how to use high-pass, low-pass, splitting signals, keeping clean low, distroting only the mid/highs etc...

I'm just... bad in the creation of my tone.

 

Until today, the problem wasn't a real problem, because with one amp and 2 pedal, you have to do only with what you have. But with the Helix and AAAAAAAAALL the possibities, I can't stop on anything more than 2 hours.

[Doug6String]

You're saying what many of us guitarists said when we first got the Helix and had trouble getting the tone we wanted.  There are so many parameters it takes time to really understand it, and it seems that's true for you.  When I create a preset I really like now, after being a Helixer for a year, I love it and keep it.  I have presets I made 6 - 12 months ago and some are still good, but for others, I wonder how the heck I thought they were usable!

 

I have no idea what bass tones you want that you can't get, but I have 4 and 5 string Fender J basses and I can get any tone I want, noting that the tones I use are pretty standard. 

 

For guitar, many, maybe most, of us recommend Helix users create their own presets to really get the tone they want.  I've tried custom tone but haven't found any presets for guitar I liked enough to keep in my Helix. I create 100% of the guitar presets I use.  I'm not a bass player (I play bass to support my songs) but I've had good luck starting with some of the Helix bass presets, which isn't true for the guitar presets.

 

I'm going to follow this post and see if any bass players have suggestions that might be useful, for me.  

 

Helix is super simple to use, but again, your last statement sums up what many of use felt when we first got it.  Time and experience fixed that for me with this Forum playing the main role to help me, so hopefully that will be your experience.

[CallMeNop]

Yes I think you are right, and the problem in this case is "me", not the gear.

 

Everythime I put a pedal (for example a Distortion, always on for my dirty signal) I can't stop tweaking it, switching it with another distortion and then... Erase my preset and start a new one  :(

 

I'm also glad about what you say on the CustomTone and the fact that you never use anything coming from it. Most of the tone are good i'm sure but for bass they aren't many presets for what I'm looking for, and they were built around a bass/pickups/play style I don't have, the results it's so different from what the guy creates.

[jbuhajla]

Not a bass player, but I have had 0% success on custom tone. I do all my own presets. 

 

My suggestion would be to start simple with a "real" rig that you already know and have experience with. Once you nail that, then you can start nailing other more complex rigs that you may be trying to emulate. 

[soundog]

You've got a great bass and a knowledge of all the stuff, but for what its worth I've been playing quite a bit with bass tones this past week for recording purposes. I'm having the best results by:

 

1) splitting the signal with a Y split block (upper path is amp, lower path is DI) so I can mix the straight-through DI level with the amp/cabinet level

3) for the amp path, these blocks: Studio Compressor --> Amp --> IR --> Cali EQ --->

 

Amp choice is up to you based on your style of music, but my preference is old-style Amp B15 (Tuck n Go). The stock cabinets are OK, but I like the bass cab IRs from Redwire (I usually use the Ampeg B15). Play with the amp Drive and Master levels, then tweak the amp's EQ, and the final output EQ to fine tune.

 

As @djuhajla sez, get the basic tone where you like it before getting fancy or adding extras like distortion, modulation, reverb, etc. Also, make sure your input level is not too hot, especially with your active pickups. Maybe try the Aux input (10 kΩ), though I never noticed that much difference with my Stingray clone.

[CallMeNop]

I've forgot to say that I have IR from OwnHammer and Redwire (I have the 8x10 and the 4x10 Ampeg). I'm a "long time" user of IR, and they sound so real to me (this is maybe the worst part of the Helix, the cab sim)

 

I'm going to put a DI signal into my path, you are right on this spot! Too bad there aren't any (or just one Mic Preamp) DI/preamp simulation (I mean, real preamp rack like Avalon U5 for example If line 6 read me  :D )

 

I know that my spot should be something like: 1 path GK/8x10 with a good low-end mic. 1 path GK/8x10 SM57, with just a tiny touch of overdrive coming from a Rat for example. No distortion, but just making my high and mids crisp a little. And a 3rd path as a clean DI like you suggested me.

With just the 2 first path effected by modulation/big overdrive effetcs, and my DI path keeping my clean signal.

 

On the paper, it's exaclty what i'm looking for, but I find myself always moving sliders here and there, and then finally, just delete the presets to make it again because it doesn't soun SPOT ON to me  :(

 

It's also nice to hear that i'm not the only one who got problems finding something that suits me on the customtone

[dragonfet]

A generic tip: One tends to dial in too much of everything, mainly because we only hear relative differences when changing amps, cabs or dialing in "a bit more" bass. For the lows and highs, I suggest just using a little less when dialing in a new tone. Also don't doo too much tweaking at once, let your ears rest for at least half an hour inbetween. I can't create new sounds for longer than an hour, after that I don't hear any nuances anymore.

 

As for distortion, I have a few tips:

1. Most distortions are not made for bass. They tend to quickly get get muddy and sometimes exaggerate highs. As with guitar: Less gain is more gain. Bass often doesn't need a real "high gain" effect to sound heavily distorted due to the different frequency spectrum.

2. Many bass distortions actually have a frequency split inside: The low frequencies are sent through unaltered while only the mids and highs are distorted. A good start for a crossover point is around 80 Hz IMHO, but that will vary with a lot of factors. Also see @CallMeNop 's reply, he does the same thing, just without hard distortion. The reason for the split is that the high amount of low frequencies in the bass signal will distort the rest of the spectrum as well, easily leading to muddiness. If you lower the split point you will notice that. If you set the split point too high, the sound will become artificial, likeas there's a clean signal mixed with just noise.

3. 1. especially applies to guitar amps. Most guitar amps in the Helix are unsuitable for bass, at least for what I do. So don't worry if you can't get a good sound out of them.

4. Fuzzes are another hard thing to use. Be very careful with the gain, they rapidly become very harsh and once again muddy.

5. Experiment with EQs before (Pre) and after (Post) a distortion block. The Pre EQ can determine which frequencies will make the distortion work harder, the Post EQ can mitigate a few issues like screaming highs or booming lows. It most of the time cannot remove muddiness though. When the definition is gone from the signal, you can't add it back.

6. I found that there's different distortions for different tasks. If you play mostly on the low strings (especially if you have 5 or 6 strings), you generally need less gain than when playing a solo on the high strings. The same applies if you play the same notes on low strings and high frets rather than high strings and low frets. And then it also depends on the other instruments in your band. Crust Punk bassists need a different EQ than those who want a bit of grit in a Blues Rock band. You may also want to use a different kind of grit when the guitar is clean and when it is distorted.

7. Always use a bass cab (sim or IR) unless you know exactly what you're doing. Guitar cabs can be a nice addition as a secondary cab, but I found that most of the time the high mids and presence just get out of control while the lows are lacking. No combination of mics and amp settings will remedy that, it's simply the wrong tool for the task.

 

I hope that wall of text doesn't make it sound too complicated, it's just meant to give a few options on what to try.

[willjrock]

Why are you deleting presets? There is absolutely no reason to do that. Save it and tweak it at a later date. There must have been SOMETHING you liked about it. Maybe all it needs is a different IR.  Otherwise your time working on it was a total waste. Without bad presets you'd have no good presets and you need all kinds of presets to have your favorite preset. Deleting is pointless.

[cruisinon2]

A generic tip: One tends to dial in too much of everything, mainly because we only hear relative differences when changing amps, cabs or dialing in "a bit more" bass. For the lows and highs, I suggest just using a little less when dialing in a new tone. Also don't doo too much tweaking at once, let your ears rest for at least half an hour inbetween. I can't create new sounds for longer than an hour, after that I don't hear any nuances anymore.

Amen...tweaking for hours at a time is self-defeating. Tired ears will make you ruin perfectly good patches every time. And as for EQ, it's often more productive to get rid of what you don't want to hear, rather than adding more of what you perceive to be lacking... otherwise you tend to end up with to much of everything, and it's a mess.