Any Proco Rat owners here?

[kylotan]

I've mentioned this before in another thread, but I am very confused by the levels coming out of the Helix's Rat model, and I'd like to know if anyone who owns the real hardware can test this for me, as I'm trying to model other people's chains that use the real Rat but finding the Helix just doesn't sound the way I'd expect.

 

If I add the Vermin Dist block with all default settings (gain=6.8, level=8.5) then despite those being quite high values for the Rat, the output is attenuated by about 6dB compared to if I switch the block off. If I use settings that I see on other people's floorboards, e.g. gain at 2/6ths, level at 4/6ths, that gives me a 12dB attenuation in the Helix, which is not really usable as a switchable stomp effect.

 

By comparison, if I engage a Scream 808 on default (gain=5.2, level=6.7) it's roughly unity gain whether it's off or on. The Minotaur (gain=4.2, level=6) gives a slight boost, maybe 3 or 4dB. Teemah (gain=5.2, level=6.3) gives a 6dB boost. And on the Legacy models, the Screamer is again roughly unity gain or maybe a slight boost. Heavy Dist (aka Metal Zone) is a small boost.

 

But interestingly, the Classic Dist, i.e. the old Rat model, when the Drive is set to 68% and the output set to 85% to match the settings on the Vermin, there's a +18dB boost! That means that, for roughly the same parameters, the Vermin is something like 24dB quieter than the older model.

 

So, what I want to know, ideally with reference to the real unit, is:

• Does the real Rat actually attenuate the signal this much? Or...
• Is the Vermin model wrong?

 

[themetallikid]

I've struggled to use this model in the Helix as well, but used to love it in my GT-8 instead of the standard 808 pedal.

 

I'm curious as well, your findings increase that curiousity

[phil_m]

I replied over on TGP, but this article may be relevant: https://benadrianaudio.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/distortion-pedal-volume-drop-and-how-hard-diode-clipping-works/

[rd2rk]

In old time hot rod terms, your supercharged engine is delivering so much torque to the rear wheels that the tires got no grip!

So, if ya gotta have that Rat sound, you need an old strat or something with PAFs.

[robbieb61]

I have several Rat pedals (including a cool modded one that sounds awesome).  I used to use them with a Marshall head. 
And no...I never used single coil or weak PAF pickups. Always Duncan JB's and more recently Bare Knuckles Rebel Yell (in my Les Paul). 
I don't use them anymore because I moved on to a Bogner Ecstasy head and now to a Mesa TC-50 rack head that I'm using with my Helix now for my amp sounds in the chain instead of the models (the real tubes just have that sound and feel).

But anyway...I can tell you that the Vermin Distortion in the Helix isn't close to the tone that a real Rat pedal (or even better the modded one) gets you in front of a Marshall head. 
I tried every conceivable way to put the Vermin in front of the Plexi in the Helix and it just didn't have that tone. But when I slipped my real Rat pedal in the loop and put it in front...it came alive. 

That's what I would suggest you do. Put a real Rat pedal in and forget about it. Let me know if you want to buy one of mine. I could even sell you the modded one with the built in power jack so you can hook it up to a power supply instead of a battery.  

[gmorland]

20 hours ago, kylotan said:

I've mentioned this before in another thread, but I am very confused by the levels coming out of the Helix's Rat model, and I'd like to know if anyone who owns the real hardware can test this for me, as I'm trying to model other people's chains that use the real Rat but finding the Helix just doesn't sound the way I'd expect.

 

If I add the Vermin Dist block with all default settings (gain=6.8, level=8.5) then despite those being quite high values for the Rat, the output is attenuated by about 6dB compared to if I switch the block off. If I use settings that I see on other people's floorboards, e.g. gain at 2/6ths, level at 4/6ths, that gives me a 12dB attenuation in the Helix, which is not really usable as a switchable stomp effect.

 

By comparison, if I engage a Scream 808 on default (gain=5.2, level=6.7) it's roughly unity gain whether it's off or on. The Minotaur (gain=4.2, level=6) gives a slight boost, maybe 3 or 4dB. Teemah (gain=5.2, level=6.3) gives a 6dB boost. And on the Legacy models, the Screamer is again roughly unity gain or maybe a slight boost. Heavy Dist (aka Metal Zone) is a small boost.

 

But interestingly, the Classic Dist, i.e. the old Rat model, when the Drive is set to 68% and the output set to 85% to match the settings on the Vermin, there's a +18dB boost! That means that, for roughly the same parameters, the Vermin is something like 24dB quieter than the older model.

 

So, what I want to know, ideally with reference to the real unit, is:

• Does the real Rat actually attenuate the signal this much? Or...
• Is the Vermin model wrong?

 

I've used a rat for 20 years and upon testing the helix equivalent I feel is not as warm and thin sounding compared to the original.

 

Not sure on the attenuation. But I need to experiment in order to get something similar.

[kylotan]

This is one of those weird things. What people are saying about it responding best to low-output pickups makes sense and fits with what I see in the metering. But in practice I'm seeing lots of metal guitarists with modern high output pickups using it as a switchable stomp on their pedal board with no apparent drop in signal. Maybe there's something else to their setup I'm missing. Or maybe Line 6 modelled a particularly low-output variety of the pedal?

[Horizoneer]

I've used a few different rats over the years, stock and modded, and they do tend to need to have the volume quite high to get unity gain - I usually set my real ones (using the same 0-10 scale line 6 use for reference) Gain 3.5, tone 7.5-8, volume 8. That's with relatively low output humbuckers played hard.

 

They were all slightly different in sound and feel. Some are a bit warmer, others more dynamic, some are brighter. The line 6 Helix model seems to have a bit of a focus in the upper mids, which is no bad thing, maybe slightly less low mids than I'd expect. I might play around tonight with an EQ block and see what's what.

 

Funnily enough the old, golden-yellow DM4 stomp box modeller had a fantastic Rat tone, with added low and high shelves. I gigged that for a while into one of the latest Vietnam-made Handwired AC30s, got some compliments for that sound. I actually thought it sounded better than the subsequent M-series Rat, I don't know if it was the same algorithm or not, and whether the difference was just down to the hardware.