Going direct and using 4x12 cab

[pete1975]

ok,so ive got my helix set up to have 2 amps blended(mesa dual and sheba) in the top 2 lines in parallel and that goes to my 1/4" line output to a powerstage 170 power amp into my cab.

This is my heavy sound and sounds perfect,literally after 25 years of playing valve amps,every head there is blah blah this is the perfect sound and rig.

 

Now,the bottom 2 lines take up effects and my clean amp (jc-120),one line goes to 1/4" out and a line coming off that goes out of send 1 to p.a. system (to save micing).

 

Now,the sound im getting out the real cab is spot on gain wise but the sound im getting direct has very little gain,i suppose my real cab is giving me speaker distortion and edge etc.

 

Ive tried different I.R's etc and although some sound better they dont add the distortion im getting from the real cab and my direct sound is very dull,no eq etc seems to help.

 

Ive tried upping the gain on my amps and this helps direct but then messes up my real cab sound.

 

Any ideas?

 

Yeh,i could run seperate amps for live and direct but as im using 2 amps in dual and a seperate clean i cant add anymore to the chains.

 

cheers guys

 

 

 

 

[cruisinon2]

Unless I'm missing something in your description, the only thing you're sending direct to the PA is the path with your clean amp tone... which would explain the lack of gain. But even if that's not the case, trying to get the same tone running direct to a PA and through a traditional guitar cabinet is always difficult. They are very different animals. It's not impossible to do, but requires some creative signal routing... the path going to the PA needs speaker emulation (cab block or IR), while the path feeding your power amp and cabinet does not.

 

There are guys who manage to run their rigs this way, but in my experience, trying to have your cake and eat it too is more trouble than it's worth. It's a whole lot easier to run direct to FOH, with some sort of FRFR speaker solution for onstage monitoring. That way what you hear on stage is the same thing everybody else hears out front...or as close to "identical" as anything ever gets....you don't have to worry about tweaking two different signal paths for wildly different ouputs. My cabs are gone... and I wouldn't go back if you paid me.

[jmp22684]

Can you attach your patch? Not only would I like to see the setup, but could possibly offer some help.

[gunpointmetal]

On the rare occasion where I'm using a house cab and not my FRFR, I just use my direct tones and set the Global EQ to 1/4" outputs only and boost some of the highs/upper mids until it sounds right through the cab. My FOH feed comes off the XLR and is unaffected by the EQ. I run pretty much all my chains as "serial" (path 1A into path 2A) so its just one long chain and then use snapshots to activate clean/dirty amps and FX changes. The cab tone isn't always perfect, but its good enough to carry the room and support the PA and it "feels" right.

[pete1975]

all the amps(whether they are on or not) run to the 1/4" line out to power amp and split off the line to an IR.

 

The direct sound just sounds very flat and no gain.

 

Il try and attach preset later.cheers guys

 

[gunpointmetal]

1 minute ago, pete1975 said:

all the amps(whether they are on or not) run to the 1/4" line out to power amp and split off the line to an IR.

 

The direct sound just sounds very flat and no gain.

 

Il try and attach preset later.cheers guys

 

Where is your send block for the FOH located in your patch? Reading this again is a little confusing, because it sounds like you're sending your "heavy" sound to one 1/4" output and your clean sound to ANOTHER 1/4" output, but it also sounds like you're using a SEND block to send your "line output" for FOH. 

[pete1975]

ok,heres my screenshot of my preset that contains snapshots for clean,heavy etc.

 

The pic shows my heavy snapshot that has 2 amps engaged and clean amp bypassed.

 

Hope this makes more sense guys

[pete1975]

The line that contains the IR also contains a cab block,this is used only for my clean sound and the IR is bypassed when thats in use.

 

1/4" line gets all signal except for whats in the IR and cab line.The 1/4" line also gets an eq that has 4k cut a little so real cab has less harshness and no ear fatigue(definitely worth doing this guys)

 

Noise gates are at proper settings,also tried bypassing these to make sure nothing was getting choked.

 

[gunpointmetal]

Everything looks like it should work as intended. The only other thing I could think of would be to check the settings at the splits for any errant panning or level adjustments. 

[pete1975]

dont get me wrong,the signal isnt being affected by something or its getting a weak signal anything like that.

 

Its just id rather have more gain in my direct signal than whats going to my cab and i dont know how to sort that other than having a more distorted signal coming out my cab and living with it.

Im guna try boosting the gain and maybe putting a compressor on the 1/4" line at the end to try and tame it a little.

 

I love this thing i really do,on my board i have the helix,seymour duncan powerstage 170 and G50 wireless and thats it,my whole rig.

Prac room has its own 4x12 cabs and most venues will be cab sharing anyway.

 

The powerstage is amazing,full volume rig with signal to p.a.,no mics and same sound every nite....just wish i could sort my small niggle out lol

 

 

 

[gunpointmetal]

Ah, I thought you were getting wildly different gain levels from each output. Does it sound bad out front through the PA, or its just not as distorted as it "feels" playing it through the cab? Personally I'd say if you like the way it sounds/feels through the cab, less gain is always a good thing for clarity and punch. Are you able to go out front and see how it sounds with the whole band playing?

[Sadomaslo]

Hi, Pete. I am guessing, that you have created your perfect tone specifically for your cab and not for FOH. I see two areas where that incosistency of Your tone is coming from:

1) I think the signal that goes via powerstage to the cab is stronger (u mentioned it is set to line level) than the signal that goes to FOH. That is why You hear more gain in the sound that is coming from your cab- You are pushing the ps170 harder, so it adds some distortion. Try changing Your signal level to the instrument level and tweak Your sound  again (probably You will need more gain and stronger signal prior to Your amp model, then tweak low end and high frequencies, since they become stronger with the signal) untill You find Your perfect tone again and this time Your FOH sound should be closer to Your ps 170 plus cab tone.

2) I also think that your IR has different eq characteristics comparing to your cab, so try a different IR, that matches your cab better, and/or use an EQ block to match it further. Maybe even try making an IR yourself and use Your cab in the process.

The last thing is the quality of the FOH mixing board- they tend to sound very different, so maybe You could mic your cab with a real mic and then listen to the final sound that is coming from the FRFR speakers. Maybe that is just the nature of the mixing board/FRFR speakers You use. 

 

Hope this helps. 

 

Cheers,

Greg.

[jonandtice]

1. Make sure the XLR output level (MIC, Instrument, Line) matches the input type you are using on your mixer board.  The mixer I use has separate mic and line level inputs.  Also, if you can, measure the signal level on your 1/4" output and compare to your XLR output (if XLR is line level).
2. Have you compared the Helix direct sound to your physically miced cab?
3. I like the above suggestion of making an IR of your cab.  You could even add a room mic to that.

[pete1975]

ok,not sure if anyones still following this but here goes.

 

last nite i had prac room to myself and tried the usual set up as explained at the beginning.

 

I proceeded to adjust the impulse response low cut to where it wasnt too boomy and was happier,i then adjusted the high cut.....quite a bit almost down to 3.5khz....this got rid of that horrible high end thing..........almost there...........actually reduced the gain on one of the amp blocks and hey presto a nice crunchy fat rhythm tone that also sounded nice thru the cab.

 

Now,ive been cutting 4khz with an eq block going to the real cab so i tried it on the p.a...........even better,im now getting a nice almost mastered cd guitar sound from an album but still sounding good for live stuff.

 

So,im happy now...........so i decided using the sure sm58 id mic up my cab and see what it sounds like thru the p.a. using a real mic set up...................pretty much exactly the same sound as going direct from the helix.......i think tweaking the eq on this thing is a must and ive achieved the same sound using either methods.

 

You gotta remember when these ir's are captured they are capturing a full range cab,that cab will never make it onto a cd with that full range  eq and never thru a mic/p.a. either,theres just too much high and low end...you gotta remember these arent mastered produced impulses but raw responses that require you to adjust to your liking!!!

 

hope this helps others 

 

cheers

[neilius]

ive been using IRs live for many years now, and you've hit the nail right on the head. It's all too common to see the high and low cuts completely ignored and for me, thats right where the magic is that reduces the brittleness amp modelers are often associated with. As im nearly always on in ear monitors its critical for me to get a vibe from the sound, which is always an uphill struggle compared to using a real amp on stage, and eqing the IRs makes it all feel that little step closer to the freq response of a proper guitar amp cone..