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I have had major issues with dropout on larger stages, particularly in venues where there are many devices on WIFI/2.4ghz. In fact, on some stages, i.e. Butlins, the V75 is utterly useless as a result and so I have to run alternative UHF wireless kit as a result.

I've seen in the later V75 adverts it says "4th Generation Wireless"; does this mean that the newer products have better drop-out protection than my V75's (which are 4 years old and have never been updated)? To be honest, my V75's haven't been used for years because of these drop-outs, but I wondered if 180/360 paddles either side of the drummer might assist. If I can't get a conclusive answer they're going in the bin.
 

Thanks in advance

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Are you performing the channel scan procedure when you use the V75?

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1) How many units are you running?
2) Are you in RF1 or RF2 mode?

3) What distance are the transmitters from the receivers?

4) Are you running any other devices (tablets, mixers, phones, guitar/bass wireless, mics, laptops, etc) that have wifi or bluetooth on stage near the transmitters or receivers? 

 

The XD-AD8 Antenna Distribution System coupled with a P180 Directional Active Antenna Pair might provide the solution if you are operating multiple systems in a noisy environment.  The isolation and directional nature of the P180s might provide you with enough signal focus to keep out those interfering signals.  I don't own these yet, but my research into these leads me to believe they might help out.  The only true way to know for sure is to get them and use them, unfortunately.  Not a cheap experiment.   But others who have them might be able to comment to their effectiveness.

 

Edited by Digitalman42
Added tablets to the devices list

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1. 2, side by side in a rack that's at the side of the stage (but on the stage).

2. Never changed the RF mode so I can't answer.

3. No more than 50ft, but, there's always a clear line of sight. The drop-outs don't tend to be at the furthest distance, they can happen when you're quite close to the receivers.

4. Most big venues run their lights/tills/screens on 2.4ghz, and the audience can be several thousand, so there are bound to be other devices using this bandwidth.

 

I've played in small venues, 100-120 people, and what caused the drop-out turned out to be a Christmas Tree with bluetooth/wifi lights on it.

The cost of the antennas isn't the issue, it's trying them out in a live environment and finding out I still get drop-outs.

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2 hours ago, phil_m said:

Are you performing the channel scan procedure when you use the V75?

 

RF strength can often be strong immediately before the drop-outs, but, I don't recall ever using the channel scan.

 

Regards

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16 hours ago, BodieDoyle said:

 

2. Never changed the RF mode so I can't answer.

 

 

Before chucking them in the bin, I'd respectfully suggest learning to use them properly. It's quite likely that out of the box they're set to RF2 which is (in my opinion) pretty useless. If they are, change them to RF1 which you'll undoubtedly find is far more resilient.

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On 10/10/2019 at 9:57 AM, Sheriton said:

 

Before chucking them in the bin, I'd respectfully suggest learning to use them properly. It's quite likely that out of the box they're set to RF2 which is (in my opinion) pretty useless. If they are, change them to RF1 which you'll undoubtedly find is far more resilient.

 

Ironically, regarding RF1 and RF2, I found RF2 to be more resillient. In fact, when I moved to RF1 the mic would drop out once or twice in the first 60 seconds, swapping back to RF2, but keeping the channel number the same, the mic didn't drop out at all.

The channel scan is unreliable in that performing a scan 30 seconds after a previous scan will show that some previously empty channels now have traffic on them; that's the downside of 2.4ghz, and particularly routers that channel scan. In the end, I switched the mic off, did a channel scan, chose one that had no traffic, monitored the red LED's on the RF meter for a while, and then when I was happy it was relatively free I turned the mic back on and set it to that channel.

 

I'm going to repeat the RF1 and RF2 test after the above setup, see if it makes a difference now. Also, I have a pair of the 180 paddles but I've tested those on stage yet, I'd rather do a long rehearsal in a busy area to see how stable it all is.

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I've been using RF2 with a pair of P-180s mounted stageside at above-head height and never had any noticeable dropouts. These are smaller venues usually with 50-300 people.

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The acid test will be at a large venue, there's no real way to know what it'll be like until I've tried it. I have a WIFI scanning app on my phone, that's fairly consistent with the channel scan data on the Line 6, so, I guess I'll just have to suck it and see. Having said that, the next stage I'll be testing it on will be probably 1.5k-2k people, and reknowned for being one of the most heavily congested stages in the UK so at least it'll be a truly representative test.... :-)

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3 hours ago, BodieDoyle said:

 

Ironically, regarding RF1 and RF2, I found RF2 to be more resillient. In fact, when I moved to RF1 the mic would drop out once or twice in the first 60 seconds, swapping back to RF2, but keeping the channel number the same, the mic didn't drop out at all.

 

 

You did change both mics to RF1 didn't you? The two modes are completely incompatible so you have to run them all in the same mode. There's no relationship between the channel numbers in one mode and the numbers in the other mode.

 

 

3 hours ago, BodieDoyle said:

 I have a WIFI scanning app on my phone, that's fairly consistent with the channel scan data on the Line 6, so, I guess I'll just have to suck it and see.

 

Interesting. Although the L6 channel scan displays 14 channels, they aren't in any way related to the 14 WiFi channels. Sadly the scan is also only useful in RF2 and won't show anything meaningful about the 12 RF1 channels as they use a completely different set of frequencies. (Each RF1 channel uses four different frequencies spread throughout the 2.4G band. Each RF2 channel uses two frequencies.)

WiFi is a tricky beast - so many devices are frequency agile and will jump around and/or only transmit intermittently, so unless a scan averages out data over a long period of time, it won't necessarily show useful data. I never actually bother with scans when using the L6 mics - as I routinely use 10+ of them, it's impossible to avoid any existing RF traffic so it comes down to physical placement of equipment rather than channel avoidance.

 

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Just to confirm, the manual tells you how to change the mic between RF1 and RF2, not the receiver, so presumably the receiver is "listening" to the frequencies on RF1 and RF2 simultaneously, or, the transmitter is telling the receiver to switch?

I tested the RF1 and RF2 with only 1 mic, the other was switched off. On stage I rarely use both, I only have the second mic as a backup, although a new show that we're doing will mean I'll be using 2 mics during a show. On that note, as you seem to use quite a few, if I were to move to 4 mics, 2 * 75 and 2 * 55, am I crowding the space even further still and therefore inviting more problems? 

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5 minutes ago, BodieDoyle said:

change the mic between RF1 and RF2, not the receiver, so presumably the receiver is "listening" to the frequencies on RF1 and RF2 simultaneously, or, the transmitter is telling the receiver to switch?

 

Correct - it's only the transmitters that need to be changed. I don't know what voodoo the receivers employ but presumably they do listen with a sufficiently open ear to know which frequencies to monitor regardless of which mode is being transmitted. (Perhaps there's one common frequency between the two modes - I'll have to dig out the list of frequencies they use.)

 

More mics shouldn't automatically mean more issues. You can theoretically use 12 together (14 in RF1) so I wouldn't expect you to experience additional problems just from adding another two. Usual RF good practice still applies e.g. being aware of near/far effects and not leaving one mic right next to the receivers whilst the others are at the far side of the stage.

 

It does sound like you're playing in some tricky venues (from an RF perspective). I'm fortunate in that I have some control over what other kit is in use in the venues I use so I can minimise any issues before they arise. Although the L6 kit is great in a sympathetic environment, it may not always be the ideal choice where you have to fit in with whatever else is already in the venue. An enterprise grade access point right above the middle of the stage will always be tricky to deal with!

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I'm using this mic and setup https://www.musicstore.com/nl_BE/EUR/Line-6-XD-V75HH-Handzender-systeem-2-4-GHz/art-PAH0012010-000 and had lots of drop-outs at my last gig... I mean LOOOOTS....

In europe we mostly only use 11 channels in 2,4 ghz, all routers only go to 13. channels 1, 6 and 11 do not overlap. So at first I thought "let's use channel 14 in RF2 mode then, nobody uses that channel so it should be interference free", but it's not exactly legal (or only used in japan). So yeah, I thought setting both mic and receiver to channel 14 in RF2 mode would fix all interference, since that channel is free in europe and this unit is one of the very very few that actually even has the option to do that. Then I read about the differences between RF1 and 2 so I switched to RF1 and just fixed it to channel 11.

No idea where the dropouts came from, I set the receiver on a table that was right in front of the stage (well actually next to the stage prolonged, the stage soundguy was there, like an L shape, so the receiver was "looking" at me in a 30° angle when I was on stage and in a straight line when I walked among to audience to another 30° angle at it's deepest point in the audience). So I was thinking of also buying the directional antenna's.

Is there any reason why I should buy https://www.thomann.de/be/line6_p180.htm P180 instead of P 360 https://www.thomann.de/be/line6_p360.htm ? Also, how  can UHF antenna's help with 2,4 ghz transmitters?

Are the cables supplied with the units? How are they best placed? I suppose you switch them instead of the antenna's (or do you place them extra on the other connections?) and place one left and right of the stage at about 2 m height?

Sorry for being a noob in all this... I actually know quite a lot about wifi and wifi tech and about mic's and their characteristics but in this case I'm a bit baffled.... especially because I hardly understand what these "amplifiers" do since "amplifying" a wifi signal is technically hardly possible.

Also I wonder.... has there never been a super cardoid version released? I just bought this unit about 3 weeks ago, I couldn't find any updated product anywhere though I would swear I read about it's existence on some line 6 webpage or advert.

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On 3/16/2020 at 11:55 AM, MestV said:

I actually know quite a lot about wifi and wifi tech

 

That may be your undoing here. Forget everything you know about WiFi - although these mics operate in the same frequency band as WiFi devices, that's where the similarity ends. They're not WiFi devices, they don't use the same channels / frequencies and they won't appear in WiFi scans. 

 

To try to address your other points in order...

 

Dropouts are usually caused by other devices emitting RF near to the receiving antennae. Laptop / phone / Bluetooth device / spare transmitter / microwave / DMX transmitter or a whole host of other devices. Keep anything that produces RF (irrespective of what frequency) several feet away from the antennae.

 

It doesn't really matter which channel you use. The RF2 frequency allocations are designed to fit around certain WiFi channels so that they can coexist. Details of which L6 channels work with which WiFi channels are in the manual. If you don't really need WiFi interoperability, use RF1 - it's far more robust but will slow down nearby WiFi.

 

The P180 paddles can be useful if there are potential sources of interference nearby as you can point their nulls towards it to minimise pickup. I'd suggest they're almost always more useful than the P360 paddles which you'd probably only use if surrounded by mics. The UHF band extends from 300MHz to 3GHz so yes, these are UHF devices.

 

I don't think cables are supplied with the paddles. Buy the proper Line6 cables - yes they're expensive. RG59 or similar won't work well at all. Position the antennae so they have clear line of sight to the transmitter which usually means getting them up above head height. One or two bodies in the way won't be a problem but several rows of audience members might be if they're too low.

 

There is a small amount of gain available in the paddles but that's only there to overcome losses in the cables. RF signals at 2.4G can be amplified just the same as any other RF signal.

 

Assuming you're talking of the handheld mic, the heads are interchangeable so you could fit a super cardioid head.

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