Diff. in helix vs focusrite monitoring

[DustinDenisio]

Hey all, I have owned the helix for about 4 years now. Love using it and am very comfortable with it. It was my primary recording interface until last year when I opted to expand my studio to a focusrite Scarlett 18i8. I run XLR outs from helix into Scarlett. Mix pre gain volume on 0, helix on 100%, panned L/R when recording stereo in focusrite mix control software.
 

My issue is this, while the recorded sound didn’t differ to my ears running the helix xlr, I did notice a diff when comparing the focusrite Scarlett headphone out and helix headphone out. While most tests I can’t hear an audible difference of xlr vs usb, but the helix headphone out sounds much better and has a fuller sound.
 

I don’t want to use the helix as an interface because I have other gear hooked up to the focusrite and prefer to use the helix patched into the focusrite for flexibility. 
 

Has anyone else ever noticed this on the headphones though? To those using helix with an interface, did you compare running your unit vs unit/interface and the headphone out? I’m using quality studio-grade cans from KRK.

[rd2rk]

I run a virtually identical system, only I have the 18i20 (2nd Gen). If your 18i8 is 1st Gen, there's part of the difference right there.

 

Question: Why are you running XLR to the 18i8? Use S/PDIF and keep it in the digital realm. 

The difference between 1st Gen and 2nd Gen is mostly in the preamps. S/PDIF eliminates the preamp (whatever Gen) as an issue. 

Also cuts the latency (and sonic affect) by two DA/AD conversions, one DA at the Helix and one AD at the Scarlett.

 

Eliminating the preamp coloration will get you closer to the Helix direct HP sound, but the difference is also at least partially caused by different HP preamps and Output Impedances relative to your HP impedance.

 

FWIW - "Studio Grade" means whatever the marketing dept at KRK decided it means. It's not any kind of objective standard.

I've no clue what the Impedance of your cans is, but I use the 55ohm AKG K240.

I also have "Studio Grade" Sony MDR-V6 cans (63ohm), and I prefer the "Consumer Grade" AKGs.

 

Try some different cans if it makes that big a difference to you. That is truly a YMMV thing.

[DustinDenisio]

3 hours ago, rd2rk said:

I run a virtually identical system, only I have the 18i20 (2nd Gen). If your 18i8 is 1st Gen, there's part of the difference right there.

 

Question: Why are you running XLR to the 18i8? Use S/PDIF and keep it in the digital realm. 

The difference between 1st Gen and 2nd Gen is mostly in the preamps. S/PDIF eliminates the preamp (whatever Gen) as an issue. 

Also cuts the latency (and sonic affect) by two DA/AD conversions, one DA at the Helix and one AD at the Scarlett.

 

Eliminating the preamp coloration will get you closer to the Helix direct HP sound, but the difference is also at least partially caused by different HP preamps and Output Impedances relative to your HP impedance.

 

FWIW - "Studio Grade" means whatever the marketing dept at KRK decided it means. It's not any kind of objective standard.

I've no clue what the Impedance of your cans is, but I use the 55ohm AKG K240.

I also have "Studio Grade" Sony MDR-V6 cans (63ohm), and I prefer the "Consumer Grade" AKGs.

 

Try some different cans if it makes that big a difference to you. That is truly a YMMV thing.

Appreciate your thoughts. Will look into the S/PDIF as I’ve seen other posts mentioning this. Running XLR because I’ve done this live so I had extra XLR cables and it just made sense to me. 
 

Regarding my cans, yes I realize any marketing department can wax poetic on the product, was just referring to the fact that they aren’t $10 ear buds. The set I use are the KRK KNS8400 which apparently are 36 Ohms. My interface is the 3rd gen version. So for example, every time I compare the two by plugging in my headphones to both, the focusrite sounds slightly thinner and with less low end, when compared to monitoring the direct signal. It’s quite subtle but I can hear it. Besides going S/PDIF, would buying headphones with higher OHMs fix this?

[PierM]

Pretty hard to get same signal from Helix HP and Scarlett HP. You'd need both preamp and impedance matching. I do have a similar setup, with a 6i6, and despite the headphone I use, I do always get a different HP experience. I do have an AKG K141 MKII 55 Ohm, BD 770 Pro 80 Ohm and BD770 Pro 250 Ohm. Oddly enough, the last (220Ohm), it's the headphone that gives me the best "match" between Helix and Scarlett,  but the cons is it can be perceived as a low volume for many. 

[DustinDenisio]

1 hour ago, PierM said:

Pretty hard to get same signal from Helix HP and Scarlett HP. You'd need both preamp and impedance matching. I do have a similar setup, with a 6i6, and despite the headphone I use, I do always get a different HP experience. I do have an AKG K141 MKII 55 Ohm, BD 770 Pro 80 Ohm and BD770 Pro 250 Ohm. Oddly enough, the last (220Ohm), it's the headphone that gives me the best "match" between Helix and Scarlett,  but the cons is it can be perceived as a low volume for many. 

Thanks for providing your input! Upon first getting my Helix it became my studio interface and I loved the way it sounded with my KRK KNS8400 headphones. But four years later, I decided I wanted to get a dedicated interface to handle some additional i/o and frankly just wasn't thrilled with utilizing the Helix as my interface. Although it is super convenient for just recording guitar. I got used to the headphone amp on the Scarlett and frankly it's pretty close but after a quick test today using a Princeton amp model, the Helix HP amp sounds a little bit fuller in the bass and the Focusrite with these KRK Cans just doesn't sound the same. Its so weird and frusturating!

[spaceatl]

going digital gets rid of some of it....Just an FYI...A "Balanced" audio signal is actually a converted signal in the analog realm. There is a slight attenuation of the high-end when source signals (unbalanced) are converted to balanced. By using the XLR to another interface you have a total 5 conversions...AD, DA, Unbalanced to Balanced, AD and then DA...with Helix alone you have 2...Technically, it is generally good to avoid conversions where you can.

[DustinDenisio]

53 minutes ago, spaceatl said:

going digital gets rid of some of it....Just an FYI...A "Balanced" audio signal is actually a converted signal in the analog realm. There is a slight attenuation of the high-end when source signals (unbalanced) are converted to balanced. By using the XLR to another interface you have a total 5 conversions...AD, DA, Unbalanced to Balanced, AD and then DA...with Helix alone you have 2...Technically, it is generally good to avoid conversions where you can.

Thanks man. Yeah I was mainly going XLR because I had the XLR cables and figured that's what I use live, or micing up an amp would be an xlr and helix has the ability to send a mic level input.

 

Upon further playing today, I actually don't hear THAT much of a difference between the Helix HP Input and my Focusrite HP Input. All of this started upon getting new pickups put in my Epi Sheraton. I was quickly A/B'ing yesterday and was so frustrated that I forgot to check output levels. The Helix HP level was a bit hotter than the Focusrite. Upon matching, I don't honestly hear too much of a difference to really matter.  

[DustinDenisio]

I really appreciate everyone's quick response in talking with me on this. I do want to try going S/PDIF, does anyone have any recommendations of S/PDIF cables? I see Sweetwater has $40 cables for a 6 footer, anything cheaper than that??

[spaceatl]

seems pricey for 6 feet. I would go to Amazon for that probably.

https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Wall-Rated-Digital-Coaxial/dp/B002EA9438/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=6+foot+rca+spdif+cable&qid=1632238918&sr=8-4

[PierM]

It's a year that I'm using a cheap Amazon Basic SPDIF cable, and just works flawless. Looks pretty much like the one @spaceatl just posted

 

https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B01D5H8VR8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

(for receiving audio from Helix, through SPID cable, remember to set the Scarlett Sync to "spdif" instead of "internal" or it won't work)

[rd2rk]

I have a $22 6ft Radio Shack (wasn't long enough), and a $20 10ft C2G from Amazon. They both work fine.

If I was buying today, I'd get this:

 

AmazonSmile: 12 Foot SPDIF Cable – Gotham GAC-1 S/PDIF-Pro (Ultrablue) High-End Silver Plated LCOFC Digital Audio Interconnect Cable & Amphenol ACPR-SRD Gold RCA Plugs - Custom Made by WORLDS BEST CABLES : Electronics

 

$24.

 

Don't pay $40 for a 6ft cable. Unless you think that a $60 10ft Mogami guitar cable sounds better than a $20 10ft Live Wire. 

[bobdobbs]

13 hours ago, rd2rk said:

Question: Why are you running XLR to the 18i8? Use S/PDIF and keep it in the digital realm. 

The difference between 1st Gen and 2nd Gen is mostly in the preamps. S/PDIF eliminates the preamp (whatever Gen) as an issue. 

Also cuts the latency (and sonic affect) by two DA/AD conversions, one DA at the Helix and one AD at the Scarlett.

 

this is what I do and it works great, as it also frees up your XLR ports on your focusrite. the only caveat is that SPDIF isn't the most secure of connections it can pop out pretty easy.  

[rd2rk]

58 minutes ago, bobdobbs said:

this is what I do and it works great, as it also frees up your XLR ports on your focusrite. the only caveat is that SPDIF isn't the most secure of connections it can pop out pretty easy.  

 

This is true. It's more of a studio solution, unless he wants to use his Scarlett live. Not a great idea. My 18i20 can go in a rack and be used as a mixer for live recording, but in that case I wouldn't use S/PDIF.