Drive pedals don't sound right using 4CM

[adagosto]

Hi all. New to the Helix. I've got a Stomp XL and I'm using the 4CM plus an insert cable to add additional pedals into the loop. Everything works...sorta.

 

I have two overdrive pedals that follow my guitar. So guitar>Revival Drive>TC Spark>into the Stomp L/Mono input. The other pedals I have in the effects loop sound perfect. But the Revival Drive and TV Spark sound terrible. Actually, they sound like drive pedals, well, in an effects loop!! They don't sound like they are feeding the amps preamp section. Also, their controls are not quite right for instance the pedal volume, while it works it seems to have 1/4 of it's normal output.

 

What's going on here and can this be fixed? Do I have my setup wrong?

 

I have it set up just like the manual says for 4CM with the addition of the insert cable. My TIP goes to the Amp instrument input and the RING goes to my physical delay pedal and chorus pedal and that then goes into the Right Return. The insert cable it plugged into the Send on the Stomp.

 

Thoughts?

[phil_m]

Do you have the FX loop blocks in your preset?

 

It also doesn’t sound like you have things connected quite right. The tip connection from the send jack is the left FX Send, so if you’re sending that to your amp’s input, you should have a cable coming back into the XL’s left FX Return from your amp’s effects send. The ring connection from the XL’s send jack is right FX Send, so that sounds correct. But like I said, you need to have both FX loop blocks in your preset.

 

Also make sure the the Return Type parameter under Global Settings>Ins/Out is set to Return.

[SaschaFranck]

Ok, let me see whether I get that right: Are you saying that the dirt pedals that you're running in front of the Stomp aren't sounding right?

[adagosto]

So here's the setup. Rd2rk was nice enough to make add the additional cable connections for me. That came from the forum post here: Stomp XL with H9 and 4CM hookup

 

 

I agree with you in that it seems I'm sending to the front of my amp a signal that is not correct AND it's pretty much exactly as I'm hearing it too...not correct. But I do have it connected this way.

[adagosto]

On 11/10/2021 at 8:32 PM, rd2rk said:

 

On 11/12/2021 at 11:29 PM, rd2rk said:

 

6 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Ok, let me see whether I get that right: Are you saying that the dirt pedals that you're running in front of the Stomp aren't sounding right?

 

Yes. That is correct.

[SaschaFranck]

4 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Yes. That is correct.

 

Ok. Then the first thing you should do then is to completely ignore the 4CM setup. Run your pedals into the Stomp and then go straight into the amp. No further FX loops or anything. Delete every block in the Stomp and see how well things work.

Thing is, the 4CM wiring should in *no way* ever affect the way your pre-everything pedals work. So these need to work properly in the first place. Anything else is multiplying whatever issues you may have.

[zappazapper]

13 hours ago, phil_m said:

Do you have the FX loop blocks in your preset?

 

You still haven't answered Phil's question. The physical connections are one thing, which you seem to have right for your desired setup, but you also have to have the right loop blocks in the right place in your preset for it to work. 

 

13 hours ago, adagosto said:

But the Revival Drive and TV Spark sound terrible. Actually, they sound like drive pedals, well, in an effects loop!! They don't sound like they are feeding the amps preamp section.

 

To me that sounds like you don't have the loop block in your preset that would send the signal to the front panel of your amp and then back to the Stomp from the FX send of your amp. 

[adagosto]

Ok guys, I think you fixed me!!!

 

Even though you were saying different things, I believe you were both thinking my Stomp software (signal chain) was the problem.

 

Before buying the Stomp, I've read that when using the 4CM that the amp models should be placed into the power section of the amp. Makes sense...but to do that, I my signal chain looked like this: compressor, boost, SEND L, Line 6 preamp model, modulation, delay, FX Loop R (for my chorus and delay pedal).

 

Here's what seems correct:

Compressor, boost, Line 6 preamp amp model, SEND L, modulation, delay, FC Loop R.

 

Now my Revalal Drive and TC Spark sound perfect!!!

 

I think this is all good now.

 

But this has shown a new problem. So far I'm finding the amp models so good I don't need the Revival Drive or TC Spark. I just need to find the right amp model!!!!! I can see keeping the chorus and delay pedal because it can free up DSP, but I'm not running into too much of that problem so far.

 

This thing is crazy good!!!

[zappazapper]

Ya, I'm still not sure you got it right.

 

First of all, a Send and a Loop are not the same thing. Both send the signal out, but only a Loop brings it back in. There are very few applications for a Send block in 4CM, and I can't even think of one off the top of my head. Maybe some weird parallel routing schemes? 

 

Second, the purpose of 4CM is to allow you to use the preamp of your amp IN PLACE of an amp model, while as far as I can tell, you're trying to use both. There are no rules that say you can't do this and get a good tone, but the way most players use 4CM is to use either the amp's preamp in the loop OR an amp or preamp model.

 

Also, you're right about probably not needing any of your pedals. Unless it's something the Helix just doesn't do at all, like a specific synth pedal or something, you'll probably be able to find something that works just as good or better than your pedals, not to mention that if you use the stuff internal to the Helix, you can now control everything about those effects, instead of being stuck with one setting or having to bend over and twist knobs while you're playing. Not to mention that if you're not plugging your guitar into the Guitar Input of the Helix, you can't make use of the variable input impedance feature of the Helix, which can be critical to accurate modeling of amps and effects. 

[adagosto]

1 hour ago, zappazapper said:

Ya, I'm still not sure you got it right.

 

First of all, a Send and a Loop are not the same thing. Both send the signal out, but only a Loop brings it back in. There are very few applications for a Send block in 4CM, and I can't even think of one off the top of my head. Maybe some weird parallel routing schemes? 

 

Second, the purpose of 4CM is to allow you to use the preamp of your amp IN PLACE of an amp model, while as far as I can tell, you're trying to use both. There are no rules that say you can't do this and get a good tone, but the way most players use 4CM is to use either the amp's preamp in the loop OR an amp or preamp model.

 

Also, you're right about probably not needing any of your pedals. Unless it's something the Helix just doesn't do at all, like a specific synth pedal or something, you'll probably be able to find something that works just as good or better than your pedals, not to mention that if you use the stuff internal to the Helix, you can now control everything about those effects, instead of being stuck with one setting or having to bend over and twist knobs while you're playing. Not to mention that if you're not plugging your guitar into the Guitar Input of the Helix, you can't make use of the variable input impedance feature of the Helix, which can be critical to accurate modeling of amps and effects. 

 

zappazapper, ok you are totally right. I think I'm getting great sounds by accident.

 

So let me clarify my desired use case. I would like in some situations to use my Mesa and in other situations use a Vox or a Marshall tone. I think the way to do that is by placing the amp model into the Mesa's effects loop. The manual indicated that using "pre amp" models work better when using the 4CM but that would seem to me you would be running the "pre amp" model into the Mesa's pre amp. 

 

Anyway, how would you structure my signal chain?

 

Huge thanks for helping me out!

[zappazapper]

1 minute ago, adagosto said:

Huge thanks for helping me out!

 

No problem at all. If you've never done it before, 4CM can be a little confusing at first.

 

2 minutes ago, adagosto said:

I think the way to do that is by placing the amp model into the Mesa's effects loop.

 

This is basically where the confusion comes from. It's true that effects loops on amps were first intended to give the user a way to put effects "between the preamp and the power amp", but with 4CM it's best to think of the effects loop on the amp as patch points to separate the preamp section from the power amp section - the effects send outputs a line level signal from your preamp, and the effects return is a direct line level input into the power amp.

 

Let's pretend for a second that you have no plans to use your amp's preamp; you're only interested in using the amp models. Because amp models come with their own distortion and tone stack, it doesn't make sense to run the output of an amp model into the front panel of an amplifier with its own tonal characteristics. If you want a more accurate representation of an amp you're modeling, it's best to bypass the preamp of your amp entirely and connect the output of the multi-fx directly to the power amp, via the FX Return on the amp. And when amp modeling first came out, before multi-fx units had FX loops of their own, this is often how people used modeling processors with traditional guitar amps. Guitar > multi-fx input, multi-fx output > Amp FX Return.

 

When multi-fx units started coming with their own FX loops, it then became possible to insert the preamp of a traditional guitar amp into the multi-fx unit's FX Loop - and that is really the best way to think about 4CM - you're putting the preamp of the amp into the FX Loop of the multi-fx. You're not putting anything "into the loop" of the amp, you're just using the amp's loop for its patch points.

 

So then 4CM becomes: 

Guitar > multi-fx input 

Multi-fx FX send > Guitar amp front panel input

Guitar amp FX send (preamp output) > multi-fx FX Return

Multi-fx Output > Guitar amp FX Return (power amp direct input)

 

And so what this does is allow you to still run amp models directly into the power amp of your guitar amp, or instead of using an amp model, you can use the preamp in the FX Loop of the multi-fx in its place. And when you're using the preamp in the loop, it also allows you to place certain effects like distortions, wah pedals, and certain compressors BEFORE the preamp in the signal chain, and other effects like modulations, delays, reverbs and other types of compressors AFTER the preamp, because the preamp of your amp becomes just another block that you can place anywhere you want in the chain. Of course, there are no rules about where effects should go in a signal chain, nor are there rules about running an amp model into a real amp's preamp, or vice versa, but at least with 4CM you have separated all these elements out on their own so that you can use the things you want, where you want in the signal chain, and leave out the things you don't.

 

A note about Mesa Boogie amps - many of them have parallel FX loops. I don't have first hand experience with these types of loops (my .50 Caliber Plus has a serial loop), but the issue with these loops seems to be that a 100% wet setting (which is what you want if you're using 4CM) doesn't completely mute out the dry signal coming from the preamp. I imagine that this can manifest itself in a variety of undesirable ways, but as I said, I have no experience with this issue myself. Maybe somebody that has more experience with parallel loops can chime in and give you advice on the matter, if you are indeed dealing with a parallel effects loop. 

[adagosto]

zappazapper,

This is totally interesting and you're right, I was not thinking about what the 4CM is. So thank you for explaining this.

 

Can you describe how I should set up a signal chain then?

 

Seems to me, my SEND L block is all wrong. It seems to me that I should be utilizing a FX Loop instead with one being an FX Loop L and a FX Loop Right. But I'm not exactly sure how to do this in practical application....not anymore at least....

 

Thank you so much for education me on the stuff!

[zappazapper]

Just now, adagosto said:

Seems to me, my SEND L block is all wrong. It seems to me that I should be utilizing a FX Loop instead with one being an FX Loop L and a FX Loop Right. But I'm not exactly sure how to do this in practical application....not anymore at least...

 

You're right, what you want is a Loop block, not a Send block. Loop blocks are created from the same Send/Return block category as Send blocks, in the Mono subcategory. And you should be able to change your existing Send block to a Loop block by highlighting it and selecting a different model from the same category/subcategory.

[adagosto]

Ok now we're getting somewhere!!!!

Can we drill in a bit?

My SEND coming out of the Stomp has the insert cable. The TIP is the Left side and that connects to the Amp Input. The RING side heads off the my chorus and delay pedal and back into the Stomps Return R.

 

So if I want to use a Marshall amp model, I would think this should NOT be run into the front of the Mesa. So in this case, should my signal chain look like this??:

 

Stomp Input, compressor model, boost model, FX Loop R, Marshall amp model, modulation, delay, reverb. In this case, my physical chorus and delay pedals would be optional without using a block (2 in my case). Is this correct?

 

Now if instead I want to run a Fender amp model into my Mesa preamp (just because I'm crazy), I would create a FX Loop L block, then the Fender "preamp" model, THEN, a FX Loop R block to get all my other stuff going (modulation, delay, reverb).

 

Is this the way to do it? I hope so....if not I'm going to put this back in the box!!!

 

Thank you again and again!!!

 

[zappazapper]

1 minute ago, adagosto said:

So if I want to use a Marshall amp model, I would think this should NOT be run into the front of the Mesa. So in this case, should my signal chain look like this??:

 

Stomp Input, compressor model, boost model, FX Loop R, Marshall amp model, modulation, delay, reverb. In this case, my physical chorus and delay pedals would be optional without using a block (2 in my case). Is this correct?

 

Yes. The only thing unusual about this is the chorus and the delay pedal being BEFORE the amp model. It's not wrong, just not "conventional". Most players put modulation and delay AFTER their amp block, but putting them before the amp might create an interesting sound, so feel free to experiment.

 

5 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Now if instead I want to run a Fender amp model into my Mesa preamp (just because I'm crazy), I would create a FX Loop L block, then the Fender "preamp" model, THEN, a FX Loop R block to get all my other stuff going (modulation, delay, reverb).

 

Well, you said you wanted the Fender amp into your Mesa preamp, so you would do the Preamp block first THEN the FX Loop Left. But other than that, I think you're getting it. 

 

7 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Is this the way to do it? I hope so....if not I'm going to put this back in the box!!!

 

Ya, don't do that. 4CM is a little weird, and you shouldn't be discouraged just because it doesn't work perfectly after one day. You can search on this forum for my username and see that after almost 15 years of using 4CM, I'm still not sure I'm doing it right. But it sounds as though you have the basic idea figured out, and I'm sure you can tweak it to your own unique situation the more you experiment with it. Glad I could help. 

[adagosto]

zappazapper,

Ok I'll keep it out of the box for now....thanks to you!

 

In reading your response, maybe I STILL don't get it.... I wrote this:

1 hour ago, zappazapper said:

Stomp Input, compressor model, boost model, FX Loop R, Marshall amp model, modulation, delay, reverb. In this case, my physical chorus and delay pedals would be optional without using a block (2 in my case). Is this correct?

 

But you said that I have my chorus and delay BEFORE the amp....

 

I do?

 

Block 1: compressor

Block 2: boost

Block 3: FX Loop R

Block 4: Marshall amp model

Block 5: Modulation

Block 6: Delay

Block 7: Reverb

 

 

 

[zappazapper]

13 hours ago, adagosto said:

But you said that I have my chorus and delay BEFORE the amp....

 

I do?

 

Block 1: compressor

Block 2: boost

Block 3: FX Loop R

Block 4: Marshall amp model

Block 5: Modulation

Block 6: Delay

Block 7: Reverb

 

 

 

 

You have a chorus and a delay pedal in FX Loop Right, don't you? 

[adagosto]

Can we breakdown the signal chain in the Stomp? There should be two choices: signal into the preamp section and signal into the power amp section. Right? Using the 4CM, we have that control....I think.

 

Ok. So when you start with an empty signal chain in the Helix, the tone you hear is your amplifier's preamp feeding the power amp. Basically as if the Helix was not being used.

 

Next, as you add blocks into that signal chain, they will all be directed to the front of the amp and into the amp's preamp section. Is that correct? So Block 1, Compressor and Block 2, Boost are feeding the preamp.

 

I'm not even sure this is correct, so let me stop here before I go on.

[zappazapper]

21 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Ok. So when you start with an empty signal chain in the Helix, the tone you hear is your amplifier's preamp feeding the power amp. Basically as if the Helix was not being used.

 

No. In 4CM if you have an empty preset your guitar signal will be running straight into the power amp, because your 1/4" output should be connected to the FX Return of your amp, which is a direct patch into your power amp. The only way you can patch it into the preamp and back to the Stomp is by adding a Loop block, in your case Loop Left, assuming the loop left send is connected to the front panel input of your amp and the FX send of your amp is connected to the loop return left of the Helix. The easiest way to test this is to load up an empty preset, and see if the gain and tone controls on your preamp do anything - unless you have the Loop block in place, they shouldn't do anything, and if they do, then you don't have things connected properly.

[adagosto]

Believe or not this is amazing!! And yes you are correct, the Mesa amp gain knob does nothing at all with an empty preset.

 

So, then I did this....

Block 1: FX Loop L

Now that enabled my Mesa to control the gain and channel control (Clean, Crunch and Blues, Burn). Without the FX Loop L, the amp is 100% clean power amp. Cool....now what!!

 

So if I want to build a signal chain that includes a Compressor and Boost into my Mesa preamp, Block 1 would be the FX Loop L, Block 2 and 3 would be compressor and Boost. Then, if I want an amp model to feed the Mesa preamp (for whatever reason), I would then select a "preamp" model and drop that in on Block 4.

 

So far so good???

 

Now I want to add a modulation, Delay and reverb all AFTER the preamp. So Block 5 needs to be FX Loop R. This leaves Block 6, 7 and 8 for that stuff, plus I have my physical pedals to use as well because they are in the RING right side of the loop and returned to the Right Return.

 

How is this going??

 

But wait, if I wanted to put a Marshall amp model into the power section of my amp (not the preamp section), I would place an "amp model" right after the FX Loop R block?

 

Is that correct?

 

 

 

[zappazapper]

K, you're getting a lot wrong here. Let's just start at the beginning. 

 

17 minutes ago, adagosto said:

So if I want to build a signal chain that includes a Compressor and Boost into my Mesa preamp, Block 1 would be the FX Loop L, Block 2 and 3 would be compressor and Boost.

 

Think about this for a second. You said you want a compressor and a boost feeding your Mesa preamp. So why would the first block be FX Loop Left? What do you think the correct order is? 

[adagosto]

I would think the first block would be the Loop L and then everything AFTER that would be sent to the preamp. But I'm gathering I'm completely wrong and opposite. 

 

So the correct answer is everything to the left side of the FX Loop L block gets routed to the amps preamp?

 

And if that's correct then I would make Block 1 have the compressor, Block 2 would have the Boost and Block 3 would have the "pre amp" model if I wanted to place the pre amp model into the Mesa Preamp. Block 4 would have the FX Loop L. 

 

I'll bet by now you think I'm an idiot!! LOL.

[zappazapper]

1 minute ago, adagosto said:

 I'll bet by now you think I'm an idiot!! LOL.

 

No, not at all. Sounds like this is all pretty new stuff to you, but you're getting it pretty quick.

 

2 minutes ago, adagosto said:

So the correct answer is everything to the left side of the FX Loop L block gets routed to the amps preamp?

 

And if that's correct then I would make Block 1 have the compressor, Block 2 would have the Boost and Block 3 would have the "pre amp" model if I wanted to place the pre amp model into the Mesa Preamp. Block 4 would have the FX Loop L. 

 

This is correct. Everything is sequential. Think of the horizontal white lines between blocks the same way you think of 1/4" cables between pedals, and think of your Mesa preamp in the loop as just another pedal. If you want your signal to go through a compressor and a boost before it goes into your preamp, then obviously they need to be before the loop in your signal chain, which runs left to right. 

 

So we have: 

1 - compressor

2 - boost

3 - preamp model

4 - FX Loop Left, which sends the signal to the Mesa preamp via the front panel input and then receives the output of the preamp coming from the amp's FX send, via the Stomp FX Return Left.

 

59 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Now I want to add a modulation, Delay and reverb all AFTER the preamp. So Block 5 needs to be FX Loop R.

 

This is confusing me a bit. I want to make sure that I understand what you're saying here. Can you tell me what the FX Loop Right block does? 

 

[adagosto]

Dude, we need to meet so I can take you to dinner!!

 

Alright, I think I'm starting to understand how this works. In my brain, I was completely opposite of how it works and that's made this so painful!

 

So what I have now is a compressor, boost and distortion all followed by the FX Loop L. Btw, this all sounds correct. If I turn off the FX Loop L it doesn't sound good.

 

Then, everything after the FX Loop L is directed to the power amp section including a modulation, delay and reverb. This all sounds right to my ear, but I'm pretty screwed up right now.

 

Ok as for the FX Loop R, I add that after my Delay block and before the reverb block. This turns on the two physical pedals I have connected. Without the Loop R, those pedals don't work.

 

How does this sound?

[zappazapper]

2 minutes ago, adagosto said:

How does this sound?

 

Sounds like you're getting it. Good job.

[adagosto]

Wow. Good job to you for coaching me through this.

[SaschaFranck]

In a nutshell (valid for any 4CM setups), what you want is to:

A) Amplify everthing through your real amp. As a result, the HX out has to run into the return (sometimes also labeled "power amp in") of your amp.

B) Insert your real amp's preamp section into the HX signal path. As a result, the HX send has to run into the preamp in and the preamp out (usually "FX send" or "preamp out" on your real amp) has to run into the HX return.

 

And that's all there is about it. Anything else is an extra.

[adagosto]

zappazapper,

 

After using the 4CM property over the past few days, I've noticed that the two physical drive pedals I have before the Stomp don't sound as good as compared to when the Stomp is bypassed. If I bypass the Stomp they sound perfect. Is this the intended way for physical pedals to be used BEFORE the Stomp?

 

Guitar > Revival Drive > TC Spark Booster > Stomp Input L/Mono.

 

There is definitely some tone suck and the Spark has definitely lost some....Spark.

 

Is this normal? I can see that being the case because I'm trying to use an anolog pedal to drive a digital mult-fx unit....but IDK.

 

Also, can you explain where those pedals are being routed to? It seems to me that considering they are input into L/Mono, would they be output via L/Mono. If so, this would make sense why they sound different and weaker.

 

Then, is there any merit in moving those two pedals to the SEND TIP line that feeds the front of the amp? By placing them in that line, would that change things up? Have not tried that. I think someone said this is wrong, but still wanted to ask you!

 

Thoughts?

[SaschaFranck]

Did you try different input impedance settings? When using pedals in front of the Stomp, 1MOhm should usually be fine.

[SaschaFranck]

4 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Then, is there any merit in moving those two pedals to the SEND TIP line that feeds the front of the amp? By placing them in that line, would that change things up? Have not tried that. I think someone said this is wrong, but still wanted to ask you!

 

Depends. In case your pedals are known to not work well with buffered signals (especially some fuzzes fall into that category), they're best placed in front of the Stomp. In case this isn't an issue, you will likely gain some additional flexibility by placing them inside the loop to (and from) your amp, such as boosting them from the Stomp.

[MayPRS]

I had the exact same problem with my G-System. My Treble Booster sound sucks on G-System input or in the loops (tone suck and thin sound).

 

So I currently connect the following way:

 

• Guitar -> Treble Booster -> Amp Input
• G-System Input -> Amp FX Send
• G-System L Output -> Amp FX Return

 

This way the TB sounds as it should and I have the rest of the effects on the amp FX loop. I think this is known as the "old way of connection", before units allow for a proper 4CM connection.

[zappazapper]

9 hours ago, adagosto said:

Is this normal? I can see that being the case because I'm trying to use an anolog pedal to drive a digital mult-fx unit....but IDK.

 

Let's start here. There is only anecdotal, subjective testimony on the existence of an audible difference between analog and digital sound. There is absolutely no objective reason why analog devices and digital devices can't function properly together, and in fact, analog and digital devices are used together every day, all over the world. The only people who can't make them work are people who think good gear is boiled up in a cauldron by wizards, and refuse to accept that good gear is actually DESIGNED by ENGINEERS who actually KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING and use well-document SCIENTIFIC PHENOMENA to achieve their intended goals, and that the solution to "why doesn't it sound good?" is ALWAYS going to be rooted in fact and reason. So just forget about that one.

 

9 hours ago, adagosto said:

There is definitely some tone suck

 

By "tone suck" I'm guessing that you're referring to a loss of high-frequency content. This is typically related to impedance. Every device has its own impedance, and often times an impedance that "sucks tone" is an integral part of how that device produces the sound that it does.

 

Right now you're comparing the way your pedals sound when you have an empty preset vs when you have the Stomp bypassed, right? Are you aware that there are two types of "All Bypass" for the Stomp?

 

From the Helix Stomp manual @ https://line6.com/data/6/0a020a418962611d636e7c51b/application/pdf/HX Stomp 3.0 Owner's Manual - Rev D - English .pdf , page 14, "Bypassing HX Stomp Completely":

"NOTE: There are two types of All Bypass in HX Stomp: Analog bypass (sometimes called 'true bypass'), where mechanically switching relays route your signal directly from the inputs to the outputs with no processing or A/D/A conversion, and DSP bypass, where any delay echoes and reverb tails decay naturally. By default, HX Stomp is set for Analog bypass, but this behavior can be set from 'Global Settings > Preferences'."

 

What the manual doesn't mention is that "True Bypass" will also bypass the Stomp's impedance, and your signal will now take on the impedance of the device that is connected to the output of your Stomp, which is the FX Return of your amp if you're connected in 4CM. I bet that if you connected your pedals directly to the FX Return of your amp, your pedals would sound the same as if you bypassed the Stomp. But of course, you would never connect distortion pedals directly to the FX Return of your amp anyway, right? So what you're actually hearing when you bypass the Stomp is a sound that you would never intentionally do anyway.

 

A better comparison is how your pedals sound through the Stomp with a basic 4CM preset, like just the FX Loop Left block that has your Mesa preamp in it, and then how it sounds when you unplug the cable between your pedals and the Stomp and plug the output of your pedals directly to the front panel input of your Mesa (leave the FX Loop Left block active because even though it's no longer sending signal OUT to your Mesa preamp, it's still receiving the signal from the output of the Mesa preamp). Your Mesa preamp has its own impedance that was probably "sucking tone" all along but because you've never heard them connected directly to your Mesa's FX Return, with it's likely less "tone sucking" impedance, you wouldn't have noticed. And you know what? There probably still is a difference between when the Stomp is connected and when it's not, although probably much less, and this difference can probably be corrected by using the Variable Impedance control on the Input block. I have no idea what the input impedance of your Mesa is but to get my own Mesa Boogie amp to sound properly in 4CM, I have to use the 230k setting. 1M doesn't "suck tone" enough and my amp sounds like a screamy mess.

10 hours ago, adagosto said:

Also, can you explain where those pedals are being routed to? It seems to me that considering they are input into L/Mono, would they be output via L/Mono. If so, this would make sense why they sound different and weaker.

 

They are routed to wherever you have told it to be routed to in the Output block, which is most likely the 1/4" outputs as a stereo pair, which will be summed to a mono signal if you only have a cable connected to the Left jack.

 

10 hours ago, adagosto said:

Then, is there any merit in moving those two pedals to the SEND TIP line that feeds the front of the amp? 

 

That would theoretically make them behave in a way that you're more familiar with, as now they will be taking on the impedance of your Mesa preamp's input. Of course, now your guitar signal will be taking on the impedance of the Stomp and NOT your pedals, so that might make things sound different (although, again, you can probably correct that with the variable impedance setting on the input block). Not to mention that now you can only use your pedals when you're using your Mesa preamp, since now they're in the loop.

 

I'll be honest. I think you should just ditch your pedals. I know you spent money on them, I know you've made them part of your sound. It's a hard move to make. But the Helix has, what, FORTY distortion models to choose from, and none of them come with these impedance issues. The power and flexibility of the Helix doesn't come without a price - it's a bit of a pain to try and integrate it with other gear and have that gear behave in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, and it even has a pretty well thought out way of dealing with the problem (variable impedance control). I've spent a lot of time and money trying to get my vintage Mesa Boogie to sound right in 4CM, because that's not negotiable. But a distortion pedal? I'd throw the thing across the room at my cat before spending any amount of time trying to get a distortion pedal to sound right when I can just use one of the 40+ models in the Helix. Or I would just accept that this is the way they sound now. Whatever. It's a distortion pedal. They're negotiable.

[adagosto]

zappazapper,

 

I think you're right. The frustrating thing is, I got the Stomp XL specifically to integrate with my existing pedals when I could have just gone with the Helix LT. Now I'm going to want to sell the XL and get an LT. If I can't use my pedals or don't really need them, then why have an XL? I'd rather have the LT and be able to see the screen!!!

 

Ok, again you have been hugely helpful. All of you have been very helpful to me.

 

Thank you.

Happy Thanksgiving!!

[zappazapper]

3 minutes ago, adagosto said:

zappazapper,

 

I think you're right. The frustrating thing is, I got the Stomp XL specifically to integrate with my existing pedals when I could have just gone with the Helix LT. Now I'm going to want to sell the XL and get an LT. If I can't use my pedals or don't really need them, then why have an XL? I'd rather have the LT and be able to see the screen!!!

 

Ok, again you have been hugely helpful. All of you have been very helpful to me.

 

Thank you.

Happy Thanksgiving!!

 

Well, it's really just a matter of what you want to do. You bought an XL to integrate into your existing pedalboard, which is an inherently linear paradigm, but you're trying to do 4CM, which is really about the freedom to route signal from wherever to wherever you want. So now because you're doing 4CM, you're trying to make your pedals work the same way, but you can't because you don't have enough FX loops.

 

So you have a few options: 

 

1. Stick with the XL and use it in a more linear fashion, without 4CM...  guitar > distortions > XL in > XL out > chorus > delay > amp...  this is the option that should sound closest to what you're used to...  the XL is just another pedal that does a whole bunch of things.

 

2. If you want to do 4CM with the XL and all your pedals, this might be the best way to do it...  guitar > XL in > XL loop left send > distortions > XL loop left return > XL loop right send > Mesa front panel input > Mesa FX send > XL loop right return > XL output > chorus > delay > Mesa FX Return...  it puts your distortions in a loop so that you can plug your guitar into the input of the XL and take advantage of the variable impedance control, which should help to make both your distortion pedals and your Mesa preamp sound better...  the compromise is that your chorus and delay are the very last thing in the signal chain, which in a lot of cases is the right place to put them, and if it isn't you can just turn them off and use models on the XL in the order you want, assuming you have the processing headroom to do it...

 

3. You stick with the XL, using 4CM, but you ditch your pedals...  I mean, if you're going to do this then you may as well do #2 because a little extra processing headroom gained by using a pedal when you can goes a long way...

 

4. You buy an LT. The LT isn't going to it make it any easier to run 4CM and your pedals at the same time, because it's still only got two FX loops. But with twice the processing headroom, your pedals become far less useful, especially given the lack of control that the models enjoy. I have an LT and that's it. The only other piece of gear I have on the floor is a 2-button footswitch for my amp that both sends and receives MIDI because my amp doesn't properly respond to EXT AMP commands. Occasionally I use an external expression pedal. The LT is the best option for me because I want LESS devices, not more. I don't have any pedals to integrate so I don't need more FX loops. 

 

5. You buy a Helix Floor. It has four FX loops. Best option if you're dead set on doing 4CM and your pedals at the same time. Everything goes in an FX loop. You can even split one of the pairs of pedals into two separate loops. Probably best to split the chorus and the delay. But again, now that you have all the processing power, do you really need all the pedals? Especially since they're stuck on one setting? Do they sound that good on that one setting that you need to spend that much more money to have four loops? You can't find something inside the Helix that sounds just as good and is infinitely more versatile because you can control it?

 

So ya, you might be right about the LT. It should do everything you need. Some Mesa Boogie amps, like mine, don't respond properly to EXT AMP commands. This is what I bought: https://amtelectronics.com/new/amt-fs-2midi/

[adagosto]

17 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

 

1. Stick with the XL and use it in a more linear fashion, without 4CM...  guitar > distortions > XL in > XL out > chorus > delay > amp...  this is the option that should sound closest to what you're used to...  the XL is just another pedal that does a whole bunch of things.

 

In this case EVERYTHING is in front of my amp going into the preamp, right? 

 

18 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

2. If you want to do 4CM with the XL and all your pedals, this might be the best way to do it...  guitar > XL in > XL loop left send > distortions > XL loop left return > XL loop right send > Mesa front panel input > Mesa FX send > XL loop right return > XL output > chorus > delay > Mesa FX Return...  it puts your distortions in a loop so that you can plug your guitar into the input of the XL and take advantage of the variable impedance control, which should help to make both your distortion pedals and your Mesa preamp sound better...  the compromise is that your chorus and delay are the very last thing in the signal chain, which in a lot of cases is the right place to put them, and if it isn't you can just turn them off and use models on the XL in the order you want, assuming you have the processing headroom to do it...

 

So this is a totally different way of connecting up a 4CM then? I don't follow how I'd set up the signal path in the Stomp to direct distortions/drives/preamps into the Mesa front input. Nor the way to control the chorus and Delay physical pedals. This sounds interesting to me.....

 

24 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

4. You buy an LT.

 

Yeah if I did this I would not use any pedals at all. 100% Helix at that point. Would I still use the 4CM to direct sounds to their proper place with the LT?

 

I think the Floor is overkill for me. I'm not hellbent on using my pedals. I'm more hellbent on finding really good tone.

 

I don't fully understand #2 especially in how I'd set up the Stomp signal chain. But remember how that went!! It was like pulliy teeth!! Maybe I'll be quicker next time :)

[zappazapper]

6 hours ago, adagosto said:

In this case EVERYTHING is in front of my amp going into the preamp, right? 

 

Right. 

 

6 hours ago, adagosto said:

So this is a totally different way of connecting up a 4CM then? I don't follow how I'd set up the signal path in the Stomp to direct distortions/drives/preamps into the Mesa front input. Nor the way to control the chorus and Delay physical pedals. This sounds interesting to me.....

 

It's essentially the same thing. Your pedals are in FX Loop Left and your Mesa preamp is now in FX Loop Right. It doesn't have to be in that order, that's just how I would do it because it makes it easier to remember which is which, since signal goes left to right in the Helix. To get your signal go to your pedals and then to your preamp, you just create two FX Loop blocks, first Loop Left then Loop Right.

 

The output of the Stomp is always going through your chorus and delay now so you would control them manually, like with their own footswitches, since they're not in a loop anymore. 

 

6 hours ago, adagosto said:

Yeah if I did this I would not use any pedals at all. 100% Helix at that point. Would I still use the 4CM to direct sounds to their proper place with the LT?

 

Absolutely. The only difference is that the FX loops on the LT are on their own discrete jacks, so no splitter cable needed, and they are called FX Loop 1 and FX Loop 2. So guitar > LT guitar input > LT FX Loop 1 send > Mesa front panel input > Mesa FX send > LT FX Loop 1 return > LT output > Mesa FX Return. And then you create FX Loop 1 block to route your signal to your preamp.

[adagosto]

3 hours ago, zappazapper said:

It's essentially the same thing. Your pedals are in FX Loop Left and your Mesa preamp is now in FX Loop Right. It doesn't have to be in that order, that's just how I would do it because it makes it easier to remember which is which, since signal goes left to right in the Helix. To get your signal go to your pedals and then to your preamp, you just create two FX Loop blocks, first Loop Left then Loop Right.

 

The output of the Stomp is always going through your chorus and delay now so you would control them manually, like with their own footswitches, since they're not in a loop anymore. 

 

Ok I want to try this option today, but I'm cooking the turkey on the wood fire smoker, so I'm going to be busy!

 

But, I will re-route the cables but I want to be absolutely clear on how to build the signal chain in the Stomp. Remember this is where I get confused.....Let's assume this is the intended signal chain: compressor, Revival Drive pedal, distortion, TC Spark pedal, [amp], modulation, Delay, Reverb.

 

To build the Stomp path:

Block 1: compressor (Line 6 model)

Block 2: distortion (Line 6 model)

Block 3: FX Loop L

 

(At this point, the compressor, distortion and two physical pedals are working together)

 

Block 4: amp model (Line 6) into power amp

Block 5: modulation (Line 6 model)

Block 6: delay (Line 6 model)

Block 7: reverb (Line 6 model)

Block 8: FX Loop R

Medusa Chorus and Vapor Trail Delay pedals always active no block needed.

 

This would also result in a situation where the Reverb is always going to be before the Medusa and Vapor Trail. That's not the best, but let's see (hear) how it sounds....

 

Is this the correct setup?

[zappazapper]

5 hours ago, adagosto said:

Let's assume this is the intended signal chain: compressor, Revival Drive pedal, distortion, TC Spark pedal, [amp], modulation, Delay, Reverb.

 

No, you can't do that. Your Revival Drive and your TC Spark are in a loop together. You can't put anything in between them and you can't change their order. You can only turn the loop on or off, or turn the individual pedals on or off with their own switches. 

 

5 hours ago, adagosto said:

Block 4: amp model (Line 6) into power amp

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean a full Amp model, which includes power amp modeling, as opposed to a Preamp model?

 

6 hours ago, adagosto said:

Block 8: FX Loop R

 

You didn't mention that you wanted to use your Mesa preamp in your desired signal chain, so you don't need to route signal to it via the FX Loop Right block.

[adagosto]

7 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

6 hours ago, adagosto said:

Let's assume this is the intended signal chain: compressor, Revival Drive pedal, distortion, TC Spark pedal, [amp], modulation, Delay, Reverb.

 

No, you can't do that. Your Revival Drive and your TC Spark are in a loop together. You can't put anything in between them and you can't change their order. You can only turn the loop on or off, or turn the individual pedals on or off with their own switches. 

 

Yes, you are correct, I didn't mean it that way. But, my point here is that the compressor, distortion, Revival Drive and TC Spark would all be routed to the preamp of the Mesa.

 

11 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

6 hours ago, adagosto said:

Block 4: amp model (Line 6) into power amp

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean a full Amp model, which includes power amp modeling, as opposed to a Preamp model?

 

For clarification, I would want to use a Amp model in the power section. In other cases I might want a "pre amp model" but in that case I'd place it after the distortion model. But most often I'd use a Amp (no cab) model.

 

15 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

6 hours ago, adagosto said:

Block 8: FX Loop R

 

You didn't mention that you wanted to use your Mesa preamp in your desired signal chain, so you don't need to route signal to it via the FX Loop Right block.

 

In you cable layout, you described the Right Send from the Stomp gets routed to the Mesa input (front of amp). It would seem to me that you'd need to turn that on in the signal chain. No?

 

As another point of clarify, the idea I have here is, if I can get the right tone from a pedal like the Revival Drive or TC Spark, more often than not, I would not use an amp model and let the Mesa preamp do the coloring. If on the other hand the Revival Drive wasn't cutting it, I'd opt for an amp model (most likely into the power amp section). In all cases I'd want to use my chorus and delay pedal (just not ever song).

 

With the cables hooked up the way you described, could you please build the proper signal chain to program into the Stomp?

[zappazapper]

6 minutes ago, adagosto said:

For clarification, I would want to use a Amp model in the power section. In other cases I might want a "pre amp model" but in that case I'd place it after the distortion model. But most often I'd use a Amp (no cab) model.

 

I still don't know what you mean by "in the power section". The power section of what? Your amp?

 

8 minutes ago, adagosto said:

In you cable layout, you described the Right Send from the Stomp gets routed to the Mesa input (front of amp). It would seem to me that you'd need to turn that on in the signal chain. No?

 

That's kind of the point of 4CM, is the choice to use your amp's preamp or not. So no, you don't HAVE to run your signal through your Mesa preamp. Your signal will always make it to your power amp via the Stomp outputs and the chorus and delay pedals. You only use your Mesa preamp if that's the sound you're looking for, otherwise you can use an amp model. 

 

15 minutes ago, adagosto said:

As another point of clarify, the idea I have here is, if I can get the right tone from a pedal like the Revival Drive or TC Spark, more often than not, I would not use an amp model and let the Mesa preamp do the coloring. If on the other hand the Revival Drive wasn't cutting it, I'd opt for an amp model (most likely into the power amp section). In all cases I'd want to use my chorus and delay pedal (just not ever song).

 

Again, I don't know what you mean by "into the power section".