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Question about the BIG volume knob


tjbassoon
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So I'm running the Helix in a 4 cable method to my amp. Send into the amp input, then amp send into the Helix return, then final 1/4" output to the return jack of the amp.

 

My question is, what is the big volume knob primarily affecting here? Is it affecting the output signals from the 1/4" output jack mostly or the Send jack or both equally?

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4 minutes ago, tjbassoon said:

So I'm running the Helix in a 4 cable method to my amp. Send into the amp input, then amp send into the Helix return, then final 1/4" output to the return jack of the amp.

 

My question is, what is the big volume knob primarily affecting here? Is it affecting the output signals from the 1/4" output jack mostly or the Send jack or both equally?

 

Hi,

 

The "big volume knob" controls whatever it is assigned to via the final output block.

 

The default setting is Multi (1/4', XLR, Digital, USB1/2), but you can assign it just to control the 1/4' out if you wish.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

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27 minutes ago, datacommando said:

The "big volume knob" controls whatever it is assigned to via the final output block.

 

No.

What's controlled by the big knob is set exclusively and globally under "Global Settings > Ins/Outs".

Further, only physical outputs can be controlled, namely XLR, 1/4", SPDIF. You can either control a single one of them, XLR and 1/4 or all three of them together ("Multi" setting).

The USB outs can *never* be controlled via the big knob - because the settings of the final output block are completely irrelevant regarding the functionality of the big knob.

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18 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

No.

What's controlled by the big knob is set exclusively and globally under "Global Settings > Ins/Outs".

Further, only physical outputs can be controlled, namely XLR, 1/4", SPDIF. You can either control a single one of them, XLR and 1/4 or all three of them together ("Multi" setting).

The USB outs can *never* be controlled via the big knob - so the settings of the final output block are completely irrelevant regarding the functionality of the big knob.

 

I realise that the output block is showing where the signal is being directed and the reason USB is listed in the Multi Output is because that's one of the path options. But, I have my monitors connected to the XLR sockets on the Helix, and if I set the Output block to XLR rather than Multi, then turn the big knob - most surprisingly everything gets louder. That is without ever changing the exclusive Global Settings.

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13 minutes ago, datacommando said:

But, I have my monitors connected to the XLR sockets on the Helix, and if I set the Output block to XLR rather than Multi, then turn the big knob - most surprisingly everything gets louder. That is without ever changing the exclusive Global Settings.

 

What's so surprising? In case you don't change the Global Settings, they will still default to "Multi" and hence the big knob will control the XLR outs as well.

 

Fwiw, labeling- /terminology-wise this is not a great solution by Line 6 because "Multi" doesn't mean the same on the output block and in the Ins/Outs menu. The output block is strictly representing a software-routing (a la "where does this signal go to?") whereas the big knob is strictly representing physical outs )in whatever combination).

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2 hours ago, tjbassoon said:

So I'm running the Helix in a 4 cable method to my amp. Send into the amp input, then amp send into the Helix return, then final 1/4" output to the return jack of the amp.

 

My question is, what is the big volume knob primarily affecting here? Is it affecting the output signals from the 1/4" output jack mostly or the Send jack or both equally?

 

The BIG KNOB controls the level sent to the assigned Output.

It is the final stage before the DAC to the outputs.

If it is receiving a 10db signal (specific numbers here mean nothing) and it is set to MAX, then the output is 10db (UNITY).

If you turn it down, it lowers the output.

 

There was a long thread some time ago pertaining to whether or not it affects tone with a link to a HiFi article explaining very scientifically that, because it is the last stage in the digital realm, YES it does, with a lot of blah blah about bits and such. If you can tell the difference beyond Fletcher-Munson you've got better ears than me. The main reason (IMO) to keep it maxxed (or disabled) is that you always know what level is going to your final output - what the audience hears - and your guitar cord can't accidentally drag across the Helix, changing the level and causing the FOH dude (or your bandmates) to have homicidal thoughts toward you. :-)

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3 hours ago, rd2rk said:

whether or not it affects tone [...]

 

100% with you here on these things being completely irrelevant. I'd even go as far as to bet on whatever ABX-blindtests not resulting in anything meaningful, at least as long as the big knob is kept within a reasonable range.

 

Personally, I don't max or disable it, though, I use it to control my personal monitoring level, by now usually via the XLR out, sending the 1/4 out to FOH (saves me from phantom power issues). But yeah, funny that you mention it, accidentally dragging the guitar cable over it has in fact been a thing as long as I was using the Helix without a floorboard case, ever since I went that way, it never happened again.

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9 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

The BIG KNOB controls the level sent to the assigned Output.

It is the final stage before the DAC to the outputs.

If it is receiving a 10db signal (specific numbers here mean nothing) and it is set to MAX, then the output is 10db (UNITY).

If you turn it down, it lowers the output.

 

There was a long thread some time ago pertaining to whether or not it affects tone with a link to a HiFi article explaining very scientifically that, because it is the last stage in the digital realm, YES it does, with a lot of blah blah about bits and such. If you can tell the difference beyond Fletcher-Munson you've got better ears than me. The main reason (IMO) to keep it maxxed (or disabled) is that you always know what level is going to your final output - what the audience hears - and your guitar cord can't accidentally drag across the Helix, changing the level and causing the FOH dude (or your bandmates) to have homicidal thoughts toward you. :-)

 

So if I understand correctly, under no set of settings will the volume knob affect the Send jacks in any way. Those are sent at.... unity? whatever that happens to be?

 

Side question then, is volume knob maxed the 0db level for the assigned output level (mic or line) or is that 0db going to be somewhere halfway down the turn of the knob?

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43 minutes ago, tjbassoon said:

So if I understand correctly, under no set of settings will the volume knob affect the Send jacks in any way.

 

Correct.

0db is another way of saying UNITY - no boost, no attenuation.

MAX on the BIG KNOB is UNITY, or 0db. If you turn the BIG KNOB down, you're sending -Xdb, attenuating the Output level.

 

By default, the S/R levels are 0db. That allows you to adjust for differences in the needs of whatever you've got in the loop.

Keep in mind that when you set the Global Level for an Input or Output, you're setting a BASE level from which the signal can be boosted or attenuated.

For instance, most stomp type effects expect an instrument level input and, since they're usually placed before the amp input, they also output Instrument level.

In 4cm, the amp input expects Instrument level, but if you're cranking the amp's pre, the return to Helix can be way too hot, requiring attenuation of the RETURN signal.

OTOH, if you want to hit the amp's input HARD without using an OD or GAIN block, you can crank the SEND Level. Clean Boost.

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3 hours ago, tjbassoon said:

So if I understand correctly, under no set of settings will the volume knob affect the Send jacks in any way. Those are sent at.... unity? whatever that happens to be?

 

Pretty much correct, as rd2rk already said. You can however pre-adjust the levels of your sends/returns globally, so they're either more suitable for instrument or line level operation.

If you plan to use the Helix in 4CM, this might be a bit uncomfortable, as an amp "expects" instrument level while throwing out line levels. If you were a real nitpicker and don't need all loops, you could however, say, set S/R 1 to instrument level and only use the send to feed your amp, then set S/R 2 to line level and use it as your return. A bit less comfortable to handle, though, as this approach requires using two blocks.

 

However, all values written whereever aside, whenever I'm setting up amps for 4CM usage (which I was basically doing for decades already - I mean, using a bunch of stompboxes in front and some rack FX in the FX loop of an amp is every bit 4CM, just that it wasn't called that back in the days), I simply and strictly follow the signal path and try to set up a completely neutral scenario as the very first thing.

Use an empty patch, only connect the guitar to the Helix input and run one send into the amp. Ideally, this should sound exactly like the guitar running straight into the amp. But it never actually will as the least thing you're adding is a buffer - and there's no way around that. Now, given that most amp's input impedances are coming in at 1MOhm, which the Helix defaults to as well, one should basically be fine when not touching anything but using the defaults for both the Helix' input and the send (on instrument level).

But quite unfortunately, I found these neutral settings (not on the Helix, mind you - ever since I switched to it I only briefly checked whether 4CM would basically work without much tinkering, so I can't exactly tell how well it works under whatever conditions using whatever amps) not to be as neutral as I expected. Sometimes it was less than shiny hardware quality (had to ditch 4CM with my Boss GT-10 at one point as apparently the converters are true tone suckers, and I'm not even a corksniffer at all), sometimes it's just been levels - even if the defaults should've been fine on paper.

Anyhow, whatever might be happening with whatever amp and the Helix in 4CM, IMO getting this part of the signal chain right is most crucial, anything else can be adjusted more or less easily. Basically, in case the default settings aren't what one would like them to be, there's 3 or 4 parameters to fool around with: Input Pad, global S/R level (inst/line) and send level, the potential 4th one being input impedance. I would not stop fooling around with them until I found a setting that would sound as close as possible compared to the guitar running straight into the amp. Fwiw, I always use a little true bypass loopswitcher for these things, allowing me to quickly switch between MFX active and MFX out of the way. Our brains and fingers tend to forget "sonic experiences" pretty quickly, so patching cables defenitely gets in the way.

 

I would then proceed like that with the rest of the signal path. Cable up the amp's send to the Helix' return, then run the output of the Helix back to your amp. All "items" set to 0dB for a start. Adjust the big knob so things sound pretty much the same with and without the Helix.

You might later on want to change that, personally, I always found it a nice idea being able to control my overall volume using the output knob of the last device in my signal chain. Allowed me to add a master volume when using amps without one. Note: This only works within a certain range, though, otherwise the sound might be compromised indeed (after all, there's a certain reason for amps to have no master volume, even if very often it might be irrelevant), but it's adding flexibility. So, for example, instead of turning the big knob all the way up, I might dial it down a bit and raise the Helix return level a bit to get the same level with and without the Helix in the signal path.

 

All this takes some time and patience, especially given that while things may say whatever on paper, that isn't always working perfectly in the real world. At least that's my personal experience from mixing and matching digital and analog gear (let alone umpteenth situations when something really awkward happened, such as additional hum when there really shouldn't be any and what not). However, I found taking this time to be pretty much invaluable in the end.

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