HX FX Problem with footswitches

[Richmann]

Hi! I have an HX FX and after 4 months I bought it new, the "Bank Down" or FS4 started to malfunction, after a month another footswitch, and after another month another footswitch, all from the left side off the unit. I sent it to warranty with Yamaha Mexico and they changed all the footswitches with new ones and the problem seemed resolved. But exactly 4 months later, the same "Bank Down" or FS4 footswitch started failing again, and then after a month later another one, the same footswitches that failed the first time. Is not that they don't work completely, it's weird, sometimes they work fine, most of the time they don't, but is not that they don't "switch" is that they "double switch" so when I press Bank Down footswitch it goes two banks down, if I press Bank Up footswitch it goes two banks up, if I turn on an effect, it turns on and off so quickly that is like it never turned on in the first place. It's a nightmare for me to enter Snapshot Mode because when I press both Bank Down and Bank Up footswitches, instead of entering Snapshot Mode, most of the time the FS4 footswitch goes 2 banks down, then I try to go back to the preset I was in, but Bank Up footswitch goes 2 banks up and I have to try several times to get to enter Snapshot Mode successfully.

 

Now I'm out of warranty. I could pay for a change of new footswitches. But My doubt is: Why after exactly the same amount of time the exact same footswitches started to fail? They aren't even the ones I use the most. Does anyone have any idea what could be wrong? Could be a hardware issue with the unit and not the footswitches? Any advise?

I have had multieffect units of every brand you can think of, even other Line 6 products and never had this problem before.

I really love the unit and I don't want to get rid of it. But also I don't want to pay for new footswitches every 4 months.

[brue58ski]

It sounds like a dirty switch. Is it dusty where you are? Or smoky maybe? It does seem weird that they would all fail. If you can get it, spray some Deoxit D5 spray in the switches. That's all I can come up with. Hope this helps in some way.

[theElevators]

Most likely they did not replace the switch, just sprayed it.  Yes, the foot switches tiny cheap micro switches are of very low quality.  You can search the forum, it's nothing new.  Cheap, small, made in China.

 

 

 

For me, my Helix Floor started having issues after a year and a half of very light use.  I am quite sure that the foam from the screens disintegrates (especially initially) and gunks up the switches.  Some Line 6 products have more foam: Helix Floor, HX Effects.  Some have less: Helix LT, HX Stomp, etc.

 

So this explains why my Helix LT which I use a lot more had almost no issues, while the Floor was already having issues.  Anyway, I decided to fix my Helix LT's buttons by myself by taking it apart, cleaning the switches with liquid DeoxIT -- a year and a half later all buttons are still working 100%.  I didn't have to do it, but I wanted to make sure my buttons were all flawless...

 

I also vacuum my Helix from time to time to get all the dust from the switches / pedal.  Especially if I play an outdoor festival, or on a dusty/dirty stage.  And also clean/cover up the Helix when I'm not using it. 

[Richmann]

Thanks for both answers! It's hard for me to believe it's a dust problem, because I only use it on gigs, and when not, it's in a gigbag with all my pedalboard. I'm gonna try to open the unit and cleaning them to see if that helps

[PierM]

As I explained in other similar threads (unfortunately it's a common issue, especially for gigging musicians or heavy stompers), these units aren't using real footswitches, but actuators that are pushing against little tactile switches. These tactile switches (not only those in the helix) have a very common problem, which is called contact noise, or "switch bouncing". That noise does engage an high frequency series of false contacts while the circuit it's changing its status from open to closed, and viceversa. See the pic;

 

As they wear out the problem becomes more and more evident, and the typical symptom is a random double action (contact friction on tap, and contact friction on release). This same problem is also the culprit for the classic tap/tempo glitch with the tempo jumping to maxed randomly. 

 

I also believe they didn't changed the switches, but only cleaned out with a deox spray, which can reduce the noise for some time (because does improve the conductivity)...but soon or later it will come back again, as you are experiencing.

 

Only way to solve for good is to change the tactile switches, swapping them from the PCB with new ones. I'd avoid using the same part, as they are garbage. There are better tactile switches on the market, but you need a pro to make the job properly. :)

 

Then, since these parts aren't really touring grade, try to keep the unit clean as much as you can, avoid dusty places, avoid high humidity and high temps etc etc.. :) 

 

PS: there are techniques to debounce the issue via hardware and even via software. I'd love to see L6 doing something about that.

[Richmann]

On 5/31/2023 at 2:09 AM, PierM said:

As I explained in other similar threads (unfortunately it's a common issue, especially for gigging musicians or heavy stompers), these units aren't using real footswitches, but actuators that are pushing against little tactile switches. These tactile switches (not only those in the helix) have a very common problem, which is called contact noise, or "switch bouncing". That noise does engage an high frequency series of false contacts while the circuit it's changing its status from open to closed, and viceversa. See the pic;

 

As they wear out the problem becomes more and more evident, and the typical symptom is a random double action (contact friction on tap, and contact friction on release). This same problem is also the culprit for the classic tap/tempo glitch with the tempo jumping to maxed randomly. 

 

I also believe they didn't changed the switches, but only cleaned out with a deox spray, which can reduce the noise for some time (because does improve the conductivity)...but soon or later it will come back again, as you are experiencing.

 

Only way to solve for good is to change the tactile switches, swapping them from the PCB with new ones. I'd avoid using the same part, as they are garbage. There are better tactile switches on the market, but you need a pro to make the job properly. :)

 

Then, since these parts aren't really touring grade, try to keep the unit clean as much as you can, avoid dusty places, avoid high humidity and high temps etc etc.. :) 

 

PS: there are techniques to debounce the issue via hardware and even via software. I'd love to see L6 doing something about that.

 

Thanks for your comment. I'm not a heavy stomper, I have a really light foot, and I always keep the unit covered when not in use, and I clean it constantly.

I already talked to a friend who's a real pro and talented technician (he fixes all my gear and electronic stuff) and he's going to change all the switches with a better quality ones.

 

What was weird for me is that I know a lot of people with helix products or pod go, and they never had any issues with the switches after many years.

[theElevators]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:43 AM, Richmann said:

 

Thanks for your comment. I'm not a heavy stomper, I have a really light foot, and I always keep the unit covered when not in use, and I clean it constantly.

I already talked to a friend who's a real pro and talented technician (he fixes all my gear and electronic stuff) and he's going to change all the switches with a better quality ones.

 

What was weird for me is that I know a lot of people with helix products or pod go, and they never had any issues with the switches after many years.

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you, why some people have no issues, yet some have switches malfunctioning early on.  Like I know a guitarist who used Pod HD500 for 10 years, and then used it as a MIDI controller for his Kemper also for years... constantly playing gigs and going on tour -- 0 issues. 

 

Regarding being a heavy stomper, it's a spring mechanism, so it shouldn't matter how hard or light you press the button.

 

Maybe it's a bad batch, same as with my Helix.  My EXP pedal was also not tightened properly and I had to open it up and tighten the screws.  Who knows? 

 

But again, from personal experience: after cleaning my micro switches a year ago, all switches are still working 100% correctly.  So I still think that there is an issue when you first start using your HX product there is some kind of debris that get stuck in the micro switch...  That black foam disintegrates when you first start using your gear, and then the foam gets more sticky or something so it doesn't flake as much. 

 

Try cleaning the switches first with liquid DeoxIT.  Re-soldering the micro switches can be a big job--don't want to brick your HX gear if you're not careful. 

 

[PierM]

On 6/6/2023 at 2:17 PM, theElevators said:

 

 

Regarding being a heavy stomper, it's a spring mechanism, so it shouldn't matter how hard or light you press the button.

 

 

 

That is valid for the Kemper, which has a different system, where the FS does hit the base ring before the spring does reach his maximum compression. It's the spring that works as actuator, so it does absorb most of the energy while pressing the tactile. It's still cheap way, but better than helix.

 

Helix package is tighter, and uses an hard plastic actuator at the end of the spring. When you hit the footswitch, the actuator press the tactile switch, while the spring is just there to pull that plastic back. So, the harder you hit the metal footswitch, the harder that plastic will hit the tactile switch. Hitting hard the FS, doesn't mean you'll be damaging the tactile switch (I mean, it does probably contribute to its overall lifespan), but for sure it does change the bouncing noise. In fact, I could reproduce the tap/tempo noise glitch only when hitting hard, while glitch was gone if pressing the switch with half the pressure.

 

Isn't just about bad or cheap tactile switches. It's mostly a problem of bad design. In my opinion. As for the randomness you mentioned, it's possible that it's different batches, maybe from different suppliers. Helix is almost 10 years is out, so I'm pretty sure today isn't same hardware as 8 or 9 years ago.

 

That's why I no longer use those FS on the ground. My Stomp now sits on a pedalboard, and I use an external controller with proper FS for the remoting.

[z3albw1rr]

It's wonderful to know this is STILL an issue.

 

I was reluctant to buy another L6 product after the footswitches on my M13, DM4, and MM4 all failed, and the power supply on my MM4 and M5 failed. I have a Pod XT that's still going strong. My HX Effects started acting "funky" after only a couple of months.

 

The switches are supposed to be "self-cleaning" - supposedly you push down and turn, and do this action a number of times and it should "fix" any issues.

 

But I do not have faith in them. So much so that I purchased the extended warranty that I can use on one of the units at least - whichever fails first outside if L6's warranty period.

 

I don't know why they can't get this right. Well, I know - they don't care to get it right.

 

I did a ton of research on the Helix line, hoping they had improved - and there were plenty of accounts of people not having problems after years. Of course, a lot of bluz doctors using them at home and rarely pressing the footswitches and not taking them anywhere potentially skews the reliability figures.

 

"Pros using them on stage" is not enough for me to consider it a pro level device - after all they get endorsements, or at least, free ones to try, and they may not stay on the board for long - or, they can afford to replace them and have techs on hand to repair them, so not representative of the average used. I'm still very much on the side of "it's an expensive toy for the Rock Cruise set" rather than it being professional level.

 

So I'm holding my breath that these footswitches hold up (and other stuff - I read about the knobs going bad, etc. etc.).

 

It was the only device that would do what I needed for the money, so it made sense for me, but at this point if either of my HX Effects has a footswitch failure I'm done with L6 no matter what (of course I said that when my M13 failed, but now I know I can use inexpensive real pedals and get great - even better - tones and if one of those fails I'm only out $35-$75, not $750 - I'll lose the switching capabilities I would really love to have, but it they can't get it right, for the price, it's not worth it).

[theElevators]

Last night saw a guitarist using Kemper Stage at a gig.  I came up to him and asked how it's held up, any issues with the buttons?  Yep, he said, button number 1 is unreliable and didn't always work.  So... it's not an exclusively Helix thing... Kemper.. Kemper!!  which is supposed to be the holy grail of touring gear has the same exact problems because they are using the same cheap components. 

 

Just thought I should mention it.  Kemper Stage came out about 4 years ago btw.

 

 

[PierM]

I guess it's just a production/cost matter, since an high end clickless/silent footswitch it can cost 10 to 20 times a tactile switch.

 

I dream of a HX Stomp or Helix, with Lehle BTN Switches... Top Notch stuff.

[brue58ski]

On 6/16/2023 at 1:19 PM, z3albw1rr said:

"Pros using them on stage" is not enough for me to consider it a pro level device - after all they get endorsements, or at least, free ones to try, and they may not stay on the board for long - or, they can afford to replace them and have techs on hand to repair them, so not representative of the average used. I'm still very much on the side of "it's an expensive toy for the Rock Cruise set" rather than it being professional level.

 

I do understand what you are saying but I would venture to guess that a pro, no matter what free gear they get, uses what they like regularly. So the YouTube "here's my live rig" videos would show what they actually use as opposed to what they've been given for free.