Help - I'm beyond frustrated with my new Helix!

[ajwain]

I bought a Helix floor about 6 weeks ago to replace my BOSS GT-6 Multi-FX, and I just can't get the gain structure I need into the front of a valve/tube amp!

I want to use the unit (as I currently use my BOSS unit) entirely in "stompbox" mode, using each of the 10 (ten) foot switches to independently switch individual effects. For this, it's great, except for my drive/distorted tones. First and foremost, let me say that I can absolutely get the sounds I want using the individual stombox models, so it's not the actual sounds I'm frustrated with.... it's the matching of the gain and overall output level such that I don't get significant jumps in volume when I employ the individual effects.

 

I liked the specs of the Helix because it appeared to offer more independent footswitches than any other unit, and therefore within my single 'home' preset, I could switch on (or bypass) upto 10 different effects completely independently. Also, it had an IEC power connector and not a proprietary DC adapter. Altogether, I thought, a significant upgrade from my BOSS unit. I have had cause to play in theatre bands which operate a 'silent pit' policy, and so I have been unable to use an amplifier. The Helix would satisfy this amazingly well because of it's amp modelling. Other than in this scenario though, I want to use it as a simple pedalboard into the front end of a real amp.

 

My problems started when I experimented with the distortion pedal models in trying to get varying levels of gain. I need to go from pure crystalline clean with almost infinite headroom, and then kick in one block to give me a nice crunch, then kick in another block to give me super-saturated liquid gain. So far, I have not been able to get a really high gain sound without stacking pedals. If I do this, then the first distortion block in the chain (which I want for my crunch sound), needs to have the output level high in order to drive the input of the block which follows it. That's okay per se, but when I want to use only the crunch block, the output is so high that it causes a massive jump in volume.

 

Just for interest, I'm using all 8 snapshots to change parameters of the blocks I have turned on, so for example, I have a snapshot to change the delay to a 'slapback', and another snapshot to change my tremolo from fast to slow. Remaining snapshots are used to change the depth of reverb and to select a key for the intelligent harmoniser. The only way I could achieve this functionality is to disable bypass of any block within snapshots, otherwise my snapshots would be changing which blocks I had enabled.

 

My expression pedal must at all times be used as an overall volume pedal so that I can adjust my output level on the fly without changing the sound or character of the gain. I sometimes use it for a volume swell effect also. 

 

I fully appreciate that I'm not using the Helix exactly in the way it was designed to be used, but all my research led me to believe that it was sufficiently flexible to be able to do what I require. If I'm unable to achieve this without enabling any amp (or preamp) models, then I'll be devastatingly disappointed that my Helix cannot do what I've been doing for more than 20 years with my BOSS unit i.e. I don't ever switch presets, I just turn on and off individual effects within a single preset.

 

I desperately need to replace the BOSS GT-6, as it has become unreliable of late, and the market appears to be laden with much more capable  units which purport to be able to do everything I'm used to and a whole lot more. 

 

Have I bought the wrong unit?

 

 

[rd2rk]

Any parameter can be assigned to a snapshot. If you need Effect1's Output Level set to 5 on Snapshot 1, 10 on Snapshot 2 and something else on Snapshot 3, just assign the Output Level Parameter of Effect1 to SNAPSHOTS and save each Snapshot with the Output Level set as desired. IIRC, this can be done with up to 64 parameters per Snapshot.

[ajwain]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, I understand that any parameter can be assigned to a snapshot, but I’m currently using all my snapshots for the things I mentioned. 
I’d really like to be able to kick on and off the different stomp boxes though, without any appreciable change in volume. To have to flick into snapshot mode in order to change the level would require three footswitch depressions instead of one. It seems a bit of a backward step. 
I just wish I could get that fluid legato high gain sound from one single block without the block before it driving the input signal. 

[rd2rk]

That's what I'm saying. If the output level, or any other parameter of any other effect (up to 64 parameters per Snapshot), needs to be different in a particular snapshot, just assign the parameter to SNAPSHOTS, load the Snapshot and set the parameter to the value desired. Then save the Snapshot and every time you load that Snapshot the parameter will be whatever you set it to, and the other snapshots will have the parameters set to whatever they were when those snapshots were saved. The Snapshot will still do whatever you're currently using it for (turning effects ON/OFF), that doesn't change. IOW - Snapshots don't JUST turn FX ON/OFF, they can ALSO control the individual parameters of every effect in the signal chain. I do what you're describing all the time, for exactly the reasons you're describing.

[ajwain]

Okay. It’s great to know I’m not the only one using it this way. I will give it a try, and I’ll have to sacrifice one of my carefully programmed snapshots in order to free one up for this new function. 
 

Incidentally, I have all my blocks “bypass” function disabled from snapshots, and I only use snapshots to change parameters. For example, I use snapshots to change the key of the harmoniser, but I don’t want that key change to switch on or off any other effects I may have had set when I saved that snapshot. I want it to change the key only, and not change what blocks I have on or off (if you see what I mean). 
 

So if I use it the way you’re using it, I’ll need to turn on my distortion block (from stompbox mode), then switch to snapshot mode and engage the snapshot which adjusts the level? That’s 3 footswitches depressions in order to engage a high gain sound - correct?

[rd2rk]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:17 AM, ajwain said:

So far, I have not been able to get a really high gain sound without stacking pedals. If I do this, then the first distortion block in the chain (which I want for my crunch sound), needs to have the output level high in order to drive the input of the block which follows it. That's okay per se, but when I want to use only the crunch block, the output is so high that it causes a massive jump in volume.

 

I re-read your OP. I was misunderstanding your issue.

Dist 1 Output Level needs to be set at a level that works when Dist 1 is used by itself.

When Dist 2 is kicked in, the Output Level of Dist 1 needs to be higher than when used by itself.

Right?

 

Instead of using Snapshots as I previously suggested, assign the Output Level parameter of Dist 1 to the same FS as you use to bypass/activate Dist 2.

 

EXAMPLE:

 

Dist 1 (Minotaur) is assigned to FS1.

Dist 2 (Deez One Vintage) is assigned to FS2.

Assign the Output Level parameter of Dist 1 (Minotaur) to FS2.

In the BYPASS/CONTROLLER ASSIGN pane (HX Edit), locate the Minotaur Output Level assignment.

Set MIN to the level you want for the Minotaur when used by itself (DZ1 bypassed).

Set the MAX to the level you want when stacked with the DZ1 (Minotaur and DZ1 both activated).

When I created the attached demo I felt that the stacked sound was too fizzy, so I also assigned the Minotaur Tone parameter to FS2.

 

Attached is a demo preset.

 

Select the Minotaur Block and note the changes to the Tone and Output Levels as you activate/bypass both effects.

Note that even with the Minotaur bypassed, when you activate the DZ1 the parameters will change values. Doesn't matter because it's bypassed.

As soon as you bypass the DZ1 the parameters will return to the default (saved) values.

 

 

ajwain.hlx

[ajwain]

Wow! What can I say?

A huge thank-you for this… I’m currently away from my Helix for a week, on holiday in Wales. However, I will try this on my return. 
I really appreciate your time and expertise with this. What you describe sounds perfect, so I’ll let you know when I’ve tried it out. 
once again thanks so much for your assistance. 

[SaschaFranck]

On 9/4/2023 at 6:17 PM, ajwain said:

it's the matching of the gain and overall output level such that I don't get significant jumps in volume when I employ the individual effects.

 

I absolutely don't understand this. I mean, each of the drive blocks has gain and output level parameters that you can adjust. Every bit the same as on a standard drive pedal. When you experience volume jumps, turn the level up or down, case closed.

And as far as stacking drives goes, keep the output volumes civil in case you also want to use the drives just on their own.

[rd2rk]

On 9/4/2023 at 5:19 PM, SaschaFranck said:

 

I absolutely don't understand this. I mean, each of the drive blocks has gain and output level parameters that you can adjust. Every bit the same as on a standard drive pedal. When you experience volume jumps, turn the level up or down, case closed.

And as far as stacking drives goes, keep the output volumes civil in case you also want to use the drives just on their own.

 

What's to understand, and why should it matter to ANYONE that you don't?

 

Did you miss the part where he said he bought his Helix 6 weeks ago?

He's a noob, boldly jumping into a relatively complex configuration.

You've had how many years with your Helix to learn this stuff?

 

He didn't know how to get the result he wanted in the context of the way he wants to use his Helix.

Once I understood what he was after I provided a demonstration of how to do that.

What did you contribute, other than negativity?

 

[SaschaFranck]

On 9/5/2023 at 2:35 AM, rd2rk said:

What's to understand, and why should it matter to ANYONE that you don't?

 

Because in order to answer a question, it's absolotely relevant to know why there's a problem in the fist place.

Was that sufficient for you, Mr. Superclever?

[SaschaFranck]

On 9/5/2023 at 2:35 AM, rd2rk said:

What did you contribute, other than negativity?

 

On 9/5/2023 at 1:19 AM, SaschaFranck said:

And as far as stacking drives goes, keep the output volumes civil in case you also want to use the drives just on their own.

 

And fwiw, the "solution" you provided will result in an almost unmanageable patch mess, multiple things controlling multiple gain stages with one switch without providing any overviev. Which, fwiw, is one downside of snapshots, so especially in case of gain staging you need to be very careful about what levels you assign to snapshots - and whenever possible, especially in case the additional gain you want is static (aka just one value), it's a much better idea to insert, say, a gain block. The full Helix usually provides enough blocks doing so.

[ajwain]

I think rd2rk gets what I’m trying to do. I can’t really get the super saturated sound I require without stacking blocks, and the first block needs to have high output level in order to drive hard the subsequent block. I also want to be able to use each drive effect independently without a big leap in the overall output level. rd2rk’s solution cleverly gives me that by using the footswitch which turns on the 2nd level of gain to also increase the output of the block before it. Genius!

 

Rd2rk has been most helpful and generous with his time and expertise so respect is in order for his genuine attempt to understand and assist with my problem. Thanks again. 

[SaschaFranck]

On 9/5/2023 at 12:43 PM, ajwain said:

and the first block needs to have high output level in order to drive hard the subsequent block. I also want to be able to use each drive effect independently without a big leap in the overall output level.

 

To adress this with minimum effort, you could just insert a gain block and switch it on/off per snapshot. This only won't work in case all blocks are used up (unlikely, from my experience, even in my kitchen sink preset there's usually a block or two left).

 

On 9/5/2023 at 12:43 PM, ajwain said:

I also want to be able to use each drive effect independently without a big leap in the overall output level. rd2rk’s solution cleverly gives me that by using the footswitch which turns on the 2nd level of gain to also increase the output of the block before it. Genius!

 

Well, it's just one way of doing things - and IMO rather convoluted.

Why? Well, in case you want to adjust the drive's output level on your snapshots where you're not using it as a boost, you'd have to re-adjust and re-save in all snapshots. Same goes for the drive-as-boost snapshots should you want to alter the boost level. With an additional gain block, you set the boost level independently of the drive level, which is a huge benefit in terms of ergonomics.

In addition, should you try to fool around with the patch by exchanging the drive in question, you'd have to go through all snapshot parameter assignments again. With a gain block, you don't have to do that.

Especially as your plans are to use the Helix as a big pedalboard, once it comes to live playing, adjusting your drive's output levels on whatever how many snapshots during, say, soundcheck, becomes a mess. However, adjusting both the drive and gain block level once is done in a matter of seconds.

 

In my book, controling any other parameters than on/off via snapshots should always only be done in case there's no other options left. Simply because re-tuning your patch is becoming *much* more complexed and time consuming.

[theElevators]

Sorry to contribute to this heated discussion... I want to share what I do in my approach to gain staging.  I'll repeat what I've posted before perhaps. 

 

In short, rather than using gain pedals that I turn on/turn off, I limit the signal coming into the Helix to allow the sound to clean up.  This may be old school, but I don't care.  It works for me. 

 

 

 

Maybe it's the type of a guitar that I play, but my sound currently is obtained by running a Classic Distortion pedal + Mail Order Twin amp.  Before I transitioned to the Helix, this was similar to my regular setup: DS-1 + Fender-type amp. 

 

Before I started doing this, there was that dreaded volume jump that had to be really dialed in, and dialed in for specific guitar.  I had to always A/B my sound during soundcheck to have correct clean/distortion balance..  E.g. a sound that I dialed in for my Strat would not work the same way on another single-coil guitar, due to its inherent differences.  Also, without any sort of gain, my sound was completely lifeless.  Adding a compressor would not help, it was always lacking that sustain/compression/sizzle that was important to me. 

 

 

 

So instead of stepping on a distortion pedal, I have been using my volume knob / volume pedal in the beginning of the chain to clean up my sound as needed.  When I put my guitar volume on "10", it is very saturated, but never completely unmanageable.  When I put my volume knob on "5", then it would be my clean sound with a slight hint of breakup. 

 

When I use the Helix and if I have time to do so, I turn down my volume knob, as I explained. When I don't have time to reach for the volume knob, I put a fixed volume pedal that does not have any percentage assignment, and leave it fixed at certain percentages.  For example, on "5%", I get my clean sound.  "40%" gives me an overdrive sound, and then completely bypassed gives me the full-on distortion. 

 

 

My videos illustrate what I'm talking about:

 

 

[ajwain]

Thanks for the contributions guys. I still think rd2rk has the most complete solution for my particular problem. As I said in my original post, I’m using all 8 snapshots and would prefer not to lose one of those to get around my problem. Also, I work in stompbox mode, where all 10 effects are at my feet. I only switch to snapshot mode to temporarily change the character of one of my effects. To have to change out of my “home” mode to go into snapshot mode just to use one of the drives in isolation would be inconvenient. 
 

I ride the volume pedal most of the time to blend in with the rest of the band, increasing the level to play a fill and then rocking back to my normal level. I wouldn’t like to have to use this to balance the outputs from blocks with radically different output levels. It’s used for expression, not emergency control. 
 

I absolutely use my guitar’s volume to regulate the level of drive, but I hadn’t found an effect which on its own could give me enough drive from my relatively weedy Strat. Yes, I could add a volume stage before the drive, but that would either mean another thing I have to switch on or off, or it would mean the level would be boosted to all of my other effects (which I don’t want). 
 

I did think about using a compressor or limiter block after the drive to tame things, but rd2rk’s solution is much more elegant, and doesn’t require any extra blocks or snapshots. 

I’ve been a semi pro guitar player for more than 40 years, so I understand the concept of picking dynamics and cleaning up the sound with the guitar’s volume pot, but if I start with v little gain anyway, then rolling the volume back just  makes whatever sound I have just disappear to nothing. 
 

As I said in my original post, I’m used to small, expressive tube amplifiers; it’s the digital world that I’m trying to explore. In my normal world, there are things that just can’t be done (or are damn difficult, like multi-impedance matching), but everything I’ve read led me to believe there are no such limitations in the digital world… hence, I bought a Helix. I’m still learning!

[SaschaFranck]

On 9/5/2023 at 8:47 PM, ajwain said:

I’m using all 8 snapshots and would prefer not to lose one of those to get around my problem.

 

You would not lose any of them by inserting a gain block. And it's as easy as it gets to control multiple blocks in stomp mode, too. Really, there's nothing easier in using snapshots for additional output volume control, more to the opposite. The only thing you gain is another free block - but as long as you have enough of them, inserting an addtional gain block is by far the more elegant and easier to deal with solution, it's even proveable. Quicker access, less save operations, more flexible (you could use the boost along with another drive block or just on it's own, etc.).

But hey, each to their own.

[ajwain]

Thanks SaschaFranck. I’ll give it a go. I’m happy to try anything but how would I turn the gain block on and off? Would it be another footswitch or would it somehow be programmed to be turned on or off when I activated the gain block? Rd2’s solution magically does the right thing with the gain whether I’m using either gain block 1, gain block 2 or both in series. 

[brue58ski]

Yes. you can assign the on/off to the same footswitch as the distortion whose output you want to control. You could also leave the gain block on and assign the output level of the gain block to a snapshot. I do this for several things. I can't remember the number but Snapshots are capable of doing several different things with one footswitch. I think it's like around 30. So you can do a lot with one snapshot. Let your freak flag fly.

[SaschaFranck]

On 9/6/2023 at 12:10 AM, ajwain said:

but how would I turn the gain block on and off?

 

Either the same way as you'd alter the output level of the drive, hence by using snapshots. Or by assigning it to a new switch. Or by assigning it to the same switch as the drive (which is extremely easy on the Helix, just select the gain block and hold the switch, you will then be asked whether you'd like to assign it).

There's down- and upsides to either method. But the "drive level via snapshot" method would be at least as downside-ish.
There's some more methods of realizing such things, such as slapping either the drive or the gain block onto path B (in case it's still free to be used). With that, you could sort of preselect what's supposed to happen when activating that path (which could again be done via a switch or snapshot). That's a method I was using in all my patches (for slightly different tasks, though).

[ajwain]

I’m not entirely sure how that would work. Almost all solutions offered here suggest using snapshots as the most convenient way of controlling the gain. I re-iterate once again that I have no more available snapshots… I’m using all 8 of them. I want to avoid a solution involving snapshots, and if this makes my preset a little more convoluted, then so be it. 
 

if I moved one of my drives to path B and then added a gain block, wouldn’t I be unable to use that drive in isolation without the gain block?

[brue58ski]

Sorry. I forgot. But you can still assign 8 parameters to one footswitch like I mentioned with the Snapshots.  So, you can still assign the gain to do what you want to the footswitch you're using for the distortion on/off. See page 40 of the manual for more info.

[SaschaFranck]

On 9/6/2023 at 8:09 PM, ajwain said:

I’m not entirely sure how that would work. Almost all solutions offered here suggest using snapshots as the most convenient way of controlling the gain.

 

1) I tried to carefully explain why that is not the most convenient way (at least when controlling output level rather than gain - which is what you said you wanted to do) as long as you have a free block left to insert a gain block (or a Simple EQ, which is what I'd do). You'd just assign the on/off status to a snapshot or a switch, done. No fooling around with finetuning your drive's output level, which a) will become tedious in case you plan to use the same setting in more than one snaphot, especially because b) you'll be losing "patchwide" control of the drive's output level, which means anything you might want to change later on will have to be done in multiple snapshots - I find that to be *the* opposite of convenient. But just check it out yourself.

 

On 9/6/2023 at 8:09 PM, ajwain said:

if I moved one of my drives to path B and then added a gain block, wouldn’t I be unable to use that drive in isolation without the gain block?

 

There's various ways to integrate path B. It can as well be a switchable serial path. Which you could use in multiple ways. Just to describe one: You could slap your drive and your gain block into path B and then preselect whether you wanted to have the gain block active or not. Path B could then be activated via snapshots.

But really, that's just one way of doing things.

 

---

 

In the end, all I'm saying is this: Regardless of which method you chose (controlling the drive's volume or adding a gain block), in case you want to use the drive without and with boost, you will defenitely have to sacrifice a snapshot or a switch for that maneuver, absolutely no way around it. So that's defenitely nothing you will magically avoid by controlling the output level of your drive. Any switching scenarios I could possibly imagine do *not* improve by using the option to vary the drive's output compared to using a gain block after the drive. More to the opposite, especially when you try to keep things simple and manageable, using an additional block is quite more convenient for a number of reasons. As said, just try to flip the drive we're talking about here - once you're doing that, all your carefully curated output level settings for normal and boosted operation go ***poof*** up in smoke. With a gain block you don't even have to think about it, everything stays intact.

And it'd only get better in case you'd be using an EQ instead of the gain block because that way you could actually shape the way you boost following pedals, a massive benefit in many situations.

 

On 9/6/2023 at 8:09 PM, ajwain said:

Almost all solutions offered here suggest using snapshots as the most convenient way of controlling the gain.

 

Sorry for quoting that again, but: It's not about what you use to control the gain, it's about *which* gain (or rather output level...) you control. Which is making a whole world of a difference in terms of convenience.

[ajwain]

I’ve read that carefully and re-read it again. 
Thanks for your most detailed explanation. I’m on vacation at the moment, but I will most certainly experiment with all these options and I’ve no doubt I’ll have learned a lot into the bargain!

I’ll most certainly let you know how I get on. 
Thanks again.