For Powercab+Helix users, do you use AES Speaker Mode Preset, or Flat+Helix Modeled Amp?

[danielmxli]

HX to Powecab via AES for Speaker Mode Preset

• Pros:

  • Have heard this provides more of a "amp in room" feel

  • Also able to save DSP on Helix

Powercab Flat Mode + Helix Modeled Amp

• Pros:

  • More options for amp models

• Cons:

  • Have heard it does not provide a "amp in room" feel, though tbh I cannot hear this difference!

 

Wondering what you use and why:)

[PaulTBaker]

I have the helix floor and use the pc in FRFR Raw mode.  that sounds the best to me.

[rd2rk]

On 4/16/2024 at 10:46 PM, danielmxli said:

HX to Powecab via AES for Speaker Mode Preset

• Pros:

  • Have heard this provides more of a "amp in room" feel

  • Also able to save DSP on Helix

Powercab Flat Mode + Helix Modeled Amp

• Pros:

  • More options for amp models

• Cons:

  • Have heard it does not provide a "amp in room" feel, though tbh I cannot hear this difference!

 

Wondering what you use and why:)

 

You ALWAYS use a Helix amp, else it WILL sound like S#$&.

 

In FRFR/LF FLAT/LF RAW/ Modes you'll likely use a CAB/IR in Helix or an IR loaded on your PC+ (called USERIR Mode).

Which Mode you use depends on your ears.

When I go this way I cut the HF Trim (tweeter level) by 6db. Sounds good to me.

I usually use Speaker Mode.

 

"AITR" is a term made up to differentiate between standing in front of a RAW AMP and listening to an engineered/processed amp such as on a recording or through the PA at a concert.

 

IOW - 99% of the music you've ever heard and ALL of the recorded sounds you're trying to emulate with your modeler.

 

Try EVERYTHING! Use what YOU like.

 

DON'T believe everything you "hear".

 

EVERY guitar played through an amplifier and speaker in a room is "AITR"!

 

[PerS]

I add my 2 cent… Use FRFR/flat mode in 95 %, use L6-Link betwee nmy Helix LT och PC+. In this mode I use Helix stock cab (v3.70). Have a few IR’s but use those only because I’m lazy to retweak some presets that sound good. I don’t use IR’s in my PC+, get better control to handle the whole signal path in Helix and easier if using something else than PC+ as FRFR.
In some cases I also run my PC+ in FRFR/ LF Raw and /LF Flat. In those cases, I exclude the speaker cab in the Helix preset. PC+ speaker is a good speaker, definitely worth trying, you may like it… 

 

Unfortunately, I have not had much luck with the speaker sims in PC+. One reason can be that I’m not that interested in “amp in the room”-sound any longer. One reason can be that nowadays I play mostly with backing tracks, and I prefer the “mic’ed feeling” of the sound. Haven’t heard Gary Moore live so it’s easier to get in the mode listening to a recording and be in the mix… :-)      

 

If you have not seen it, I recommend this thread -

In above thread there amsdenj recommend the use of LF Raw-method I wrote about above (direct link to his post) -

This thread has some more info around the subject (link to my post, but there is more to read) -

 

Else, that's mentioned in previous posts.  

 

Hope I didn't add to much confusion to the table... :-)
//Per 
 

[amsdenj]

I use two outputs, one goes through a cab block to FOH and IEMs, the other no cab block into Powercab 112+ or 212 (depending on the gig) always in Flat/RAW. I find I really like the sound of the Eminence speaker.  So I treat Powercab as a 1x12 or 2x12 powered guitar speaker in a closed back cabinet. I don't try to make it sound like something it isn't. That's speaker configuration works well for me in a gigging situation. 

 

Powercab is a really great platform for use with any modeler. I find it convenient, reliable, easy to use, very flexible, and sounds great. It's perhaps not the best FRFR since the speaker is a guitar speaker, not HI-Fi, and the tweeter is coaxial which limits the high frequency dispersion a bit. I wouldn't use it for bass for example. It could probably be used for keys, but might not be that great. 

[somebodyelse]

I do whatever suits what I'm playing best.

 

FWIW, I'm Helix Floor>PC+ via L6 Link.

I prefer to use 'Speaker' mode, and I have tweeked some of the PC's global settings on the advice of a couple of the veteran experts, though I couldn't tell you off the top of my head the exact numbers.

I'm probably less fussy and I almost certainly use less effects than most - one of my presets only has an amp module. I'm just trying to get a great sound rather than match someone else's sound or reinvent the wheel.

 

"The tone's are in there, you just have to know how to get them out."

[rlagos144]

Hi  @rd2rk I read you use speaker sims, wich one do you like the most and do you apply any kind of EQ at the end of the chain to have more thump (as a real amp)?

thanks!

 

[rd2rk]

I start with the RW speaker associated with the amp I'm using and try the others if I don't like it.

EXAMPLE - a Marshall gets a GB25 or a V30.

I use the amp's tonestack just like I would ITRW.

Works for me!

 

NOTE 1 - These things sound best LOUD.

They are NOT intended for bedroom use.

 

NOTE 2 - I am not someone who is looking to duplicate EXACTLY Joe Blow's tone on the second solo of "Track 5" on his "Live at the XYZ" album.

I'm just after something that works with the song I'm playing and/or simply inspires me to play.

 

[rlagos144]

Thanks @rd2rk, yes! speaker sims at HI volume... wow!!! at low volume I feel the LF RAW sounds with more punch than the speaker sims (more low end) but at high volume both sounds great... so you dont use any kind of "global eq" for the speaker sims? I read a topic here at the forum some member recomending increasing certain frecuencies (250, 2k,4k, and 8k) 

[rd2rk]

On 6/17/2024 at 12:06 PM, rlagos144 said:

Thanks @rd2rk, yes! speaker sims at HI volume... wow!!! at low volume I feel the LF RAW sounds with more punch than the speaker sims (more low end) but at high volume both sounds great... so you dont use any kind of "global eq" for the speaker sims? I read a topic here at the forum some member recomending increasing certain frecuencies (250, 2k,4k, and 8k) 

 

Global EQ is intended to be used to tune the PC to the room it happens to be in at any given time.

If you're using it at home at low volume it can be used to compensate for the Fletcher-Munson effect.

As I said, I use the amp's tonestack just like I would with any RW amp.

I'm not so picky about the minutiae of a given tone that I feel the need to be hunting and pecking at +.5db at 527hz and -.2db at 2130hz.

If that's your thing (maybe you're recording an important demo), go for it, but I get distracted and end up just playing my guitar. ;-)

[rlagos144]

Thanks @rd2rkno, im not so picky either, just trying to get the most "real" feel and sound from the speaker sims, for example the vintage to sound and feel just like a real 212 v30, at high volume sounds amazing, but the thing i dont understand is why in LF RAW it sound with more low end and hiss but if you take the natural speaker (thats suppose to sound just like the LF RAW) it sounds with some kind of aggresive hi cut and low cut, but as you said, at high volume beucaes of the fletcher munson its sounds amazing, not intender for home use, but for live and rehearsal.

[rd2rk]

On 6/18/2024 at 8:35 AM, rlagos144 said:

just trying to get the most "real" feel and sound from the speaker sims, for example the vintage to sound and feel just like a real 212 v30

 

I just checked SW's listings. There's 41 2x12 cabs with V30s. And they don't carry every one made. Which one do you want the PC212 to sound like?

 

The PC212 is made of real wood (why it weighs a ton) and designed to sound good (to the ears of the designers) with the Eminence guitar speakers it contains.

I suspect that they designed the EQ curves (that's all they are) of the "emulations" by putting those speakers in the PC212 cab and analyzing what they sounded like.

So, in theory, the V30 emulation sounds like what that particular set of V30s (V30 is a product designation whose actual specifications have changed many times over the years) sounds like in the PC212 cab.

 

IOW/bottom line - you're chasing a unicorn.

 

On 6/18/2024 at 8:35 AM, rlagos144 said:

the thing i dont understand is why in LF RAW it sound with more low end and hiss but if you take the natural speaker (thats suppose to sound just like the LF RAW) it sounds with some kind of aggresive hi cut and low cut

 

My best guess is that LF RAW is the sound of the actual Eminence speaker. NATURAL is the EMULATION of that speaker. 

If they couldn't get the emulation of the speaker designed for the cab to be accurate, what does that say for the other emulations?

 

I think that they should never have named the emulations, they should have simply numbered them.

Without impossible expectations of brand/model accuracy people would have just tried them all until they found one that worked for the sound they were after.

Would have been really funny (for the designers) to read the TGP D&M forum posts swearing that emulation #4 sounds EXACTLY like the 4x12 Marshall GB25 cab they owned 25 years ago in High School when it was actually based on a Jensen P12Q.

 

On 6/18/2024 at 8:35 AM, rlagos144 said:

at high volume beucaes of the fletcher munson its sounds amazing, not intender for home use, but for live and rehearsal.

 

Universal truth - LOUDER IS BETTER! LONG LIVE ROCK'n"ROLL!

[rlagos144]

thanks @rd2rk its not, not even all 212 v30 cabs will sound the same, even the same cab (same brand etc etc) could sound slightly different, and I guess line 6 engenieers AB the speaker sim with some specific type of cab to model the powercab ones.

 

 

[somebodyelse]

These debates about 'sonic accuracy' always make me chuckle.

 

Analogue components age over time and fail, sooner or later, and some of that aging alters how the gear sounds.

My 'real world rig' is now 30 years old. The valves, especially the pre-amp valves, have been changed several times, and every time it happened, even though I used the same brand, they sounded different - because old valves get dull over time.

I replaced the speaker units (2x 1x12 closed-backs) five years back, because the original speakers I used failed - they were 20 years old when I got 'em. Replaced 'em with V30s.

The V30 models in my PC+s sounded 'close enough' to them, four years ago, and I'm happy with that. However, the five individual speakers involved are now 4 years older, as are the valves in the analogue setup.

 

The digital models don't age. The speakers and the electronics do and how that affects the sound... who knows?

[rlagos144]

@somebodyelse true! good point.

Good to know that the PC+ vintage sound really close to the real v30 you had tho'

 

thanks!