STPLE

Thanks radatats. I totally understand the voicing and topology idea. So I would tell the DT via midi on each patch what topology and voicing I want. Sounds easy enough. I'm not a midi pro - but that seems doable. Can I ask a few more questions - can you with one midi and Line6 Link - use the DT25 power section only - but still use the Helix cab sims or IR and then delays and or reverb after power section?? I think the answer is yes - but I can't seem to figure out how (I Don't have the Helix yet). I'd like to run direct from the Helix to the PA - do you think that would work?? I don't want to give up on the actual analog power section or the tubes. I never thought of the full amps being too HOT. I usually run my DT25 master at 3 o'clock and the PODHD500 master at about 1 o'clock. If you find out would you let me know. The preamp volume differences kinda stinks - that is the way it is now with the POD. I feel like I have to arrange my sets with amps that are comparable. If the full amp models are more even that would be great. I use a lot of amp models. If you try out the DT direct out back to the Helix - let me know. I would need the direct from Helix to PA to work or I don't think I would be able to use it (for what I'm doing). "I don't care about using the DT standalone anymore, it's just for the Helix now" - Does that mean it's worth it?? Price and messing around with all this and making it work?? Thanks again for helping. I really appreciate your help.

Ok. That is awesome. I'm officially excited. I've tried going back and forth between electric and acoustic in a set but with the PODHD and DT - I would have to disconnect the Line6 Link and then connect the one of the outputs to the PA. Everyone would have to perfect or else pops and buzzes and all sorts of bad stuff. Can you explain how that would work?? I don't have the Helix yet. Thanks!!

Would you guys know if you put a DT25 in the mix for electric tones - would you be able to us a PRS P22, PRS P24 or PRS P245 for the acoustic sounds during a set without changing chords around, etc.?? I'd want the electric stuff going through the helix - DT back to Helix to the PA board. I would want the acoustic stuff to go straight from Helix to the PA Board. Is that setup possible??

Considering getting a Helix. I have a couple questions - wondering if you guys would help. I have an M-audio midi that I can turn off the modeling stuff on the DT25. I'm new to midi but this doesn't seem too bad. If I understand you correctly I can use the Helix on Channel B with a one way midi chord to send back to the DT which topology I want for a particular patch - for example, Class A Top III for Vox amp - then if I change the patch the Helix command center can change to Class AB Top I for a Fender, etc.?? Is that correct?? Also, currently I use the DI out of the DT25 to the PA board. That works well for me since we have in ear monitors and do not want stage volume. From reading post and a little research it seems that I would the Helix cabs/IR. How can I or is it possible to send the signal back to the Helix for the IR and then direct out from the Helix to the PA board?? Can I use the Line6 Link - or will the Line6 Link send the signal back to the Helix?? 4CM?? As a side note I use a Rivera Rockcrusher Recorder as load box currently. I tried using the direct out on it but didn't have good results through the PA. I don't have time to sit there and figure it out (I'm sure it would be amazing just don't have the time to figure it out). I use it for load box during a set and then use it at home as the attenuator for tone building. Right now I would like to avoid using the Rockcrusher's DI out to Helix because there would another EQ, etc. I just assume keep using it as a load box for the DT25 Head. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I've been trying to get the tones to match and I was wondering if someone would please show me where I'm wrong. It seems like as soon as I unplug the L6Link and go direct the tone changes for the better. I've reset my amp, I've tried a lot of things suggested in these forums. I'm a believer. I know it will match but I'm missing something Here is my setup: Input source 1 guitar. Input 2 Variax Output is: Stack power amp (I have the head and cab). Main Mixer is straight up and down (not panned left and right) and both mixer volumes at 0.0. L6 Link: Amp 1 set to left. Amps 2, 3 & 4 are all muted. I'm using the pre versions of the amp models (from grandinq post) that are defaults for voicing I, II, III & IV. I use class A for voicing III. I'm using all the default cabs and mics that come with the pre versions of the amp models. Guitar input is set to Auto The POD master is 100%. The DT master is set about 3 O'clock. The Global Eq is off. I haven't updated to 2.0 since I have the POD HD500 and I don't have a MIDI device. The cables are all good (I have a few XLR AES/EBU cables of different length that I've used for various setups). I do use a Rockcrusher attenuator (with no EQ) for volume control. That remains the same between the head and cab for all scenarios. Can anyone tell me what I'm missing?? I really want to get this. It seems to lose something - I want to figure it out.

Just this past time I was comparing a new matched set of EHs to a new matched set of TAD STRs. In the past I tried JJs, Gold Lions, Tung Sol and then obviously TAD STRs. I'm not saying any or all of those are bad sounding tubes at all. I'm not an amp tech nor do I understand all the curves, etc. So if I can get great tones with the EHs I decided to go back to be safe. The main issue I had with them in the beginning is that it seemed to get "harsh" very quickly especially when over driven. The ones I got in there now sound fantastic. I'm glad I tried a new set to compare apples to apples. I'll probably change them out about once a year now - I think I let the original stock EH tubes go too long. The PI spot I've tried a bunch of tubes and keep going back to the Sovtek LPS. I've tried the JJ 803, JJ 83, Mullard 12X7 (which I think is the same tube as the Sovtek LPS), Tung Sol & the Tung Sol 12AT7. Lastly I just tried the Northern Electric 12AX7. I keep going back to the Sovtek and will probably just run that for a long time. Hope this helps. Good luck!!

I've been running TADs STRs for about a year no problem. In fact a just ordered a new back up set about month ago just before I read this thread. After reading all of this I decided to get a new matched set of EHs per psarkissian's advice. I bias and install the tubes myself so for roughly $25 I wanted to see how a new set would compare. My thought was if there wasn't any huge difference I would run EHs and move on (I only have one other backup amp left!!). What I found was that a new set of EHs sounded really really good. I've had them in about two weeks and played through rehearsal last night. I'm not going back - I'm going to take psarkissian's advice and run matched sets of EHs from now on. I guess the only reason I'm writing this is that I wonder if you compare any set of EL84s that are brand new to a set that has been used and pushed hard for a year or more - the new one would sound better. Take it for what it's worth. So much goes into a tone (the person playing, guitar, pickups, strings, tubes, preamp tubes, speakers, cabs, pedals or POD, signal strength, PA systems, microphones for cabs, the room, what your band is playing, style of music, etc.) this is just one aspect of all of that. I think the amp sounds absolutely wonderful - I'm sticking with EHs. thanks psarkissian!!

Thank you forum members. I've been playing my acoustic guitar through my POD HD500 for years with the input 1 set on guitar and input 2 set on mic with the mic turned all the way off (knob on back of POD). I haven't done this since playing electric with the DT25. I do use dual amp tones some and wonder if I just automatically did this without giving it much thought. I've not tried before to match the DT25 through L6 Link tone with the sound and feel going direct to the DT25. I did just for kicks and got it really close - but I turned the cab sims off - which in contrast to what others have said. Which leads to my questions below. Can the DT (like any other computer, etc.) get corrupted slightly?? I've never done the update (2.0) since I have the POD. From what I've read it won't benefit me to do the update since I have the POD. I don't have any MIDI controls, etc. Could it be a good idea to do the factory reset every so often just to be sure nothing has accidently change or whatever?? Kinda like a restart on a computer?? Or am is the factory reset "only do as last resort" type of thing. I hope this make sense.

I saved my stock tubes when I changed them - they were labeled EH EL84s. After reading these posts I checked it last night.

I don't know if they meet Bogner specs but I'm running TAD-STR EL84 (in the DT25) and they sound great to me. I've had them in about a year now and no trouble. I checked the bias points a few nights ago and they were still 25 and 24.6 - so pretty dead on. I've tried a bunch of power tubes and PI tubes. With my pickups and style of music I've landed on the TADs at least for now. As far as the PI spot - imho it can make a subtle differences - especially as you turn the amp up push it really hard. I've had good luck with Sovtek 12AX7 LPS.

I bought the head and cab. I'm glad I did. For what it's worth it's awesome. For what I use it for the head and cab is perfect. You can very easily use an attenuator (I did at one time a lot - still use it in my basement, etc.). If stage noise is a problem (it is for us) then you can easily have your head on stage with you and have the cab off stage (in another room, iso box, etc.) cranking. I'm no amp tech - but I've changed the tubes, biased, etc. very very easy on the DT25 head. Also, a person I play with has a Mesa Cab - again very very easy to switch out cabs, speakers, etc. if you want. There is no wrong answer at all - I'm glad I got the head/cab combo. I hope this helps. Good luck. The amp is awesome!!

Over the past several months I bought and tried out quite a few different tubes. I thought I would share my observations. Please keep in mind I'm not a professional musician and this is not a scientific study. I would change out tubes, play some songs with a few go to patches and listen. I typically would put a new set (or new PI) in and keep them in for a week or so - bias them again - and then keep them in a week or two more. I hesitated writing this since tone is very subjective. There are times when I love the sounds during rehearsal but then not like it the next day. I won't describe what I heard because someone else with different pickups, guitar, band and music styles may come to a very different conclusion. In fact I liked every tube I tried. Some sounded better with different amp models. This was good exercise in case I ever get two heads - I'll put in a different set of tubes in each. I liked the way the amp sounded already but I was trying to warm it up just a touch and take a bit of harshness out and just a bit more headroom. I didn't try any NOS tubes. Here are the PIs that I tried: 1. JJ ECC803 S 2. JJ ECC83 S 3. Mullard 12X7 4. Tung-Sol 12AX7 5. Tung-Sol 12ATW 6. Sovtek 12AX7 LPS I found (for what I wanted) I liked the longer plate PIs. The Sovtek and the Mullard seemed very similar if not the same. The order that liked them best to worse was: Sovtek, Mullard, JJ ECC803 S. Of the shorter plates PIs I preferred the Tung-Sol 12AX7 the best. I don't know enough about how the amp works to be confident with the 12ATW. It didn't wow me. In fact I didn't notice that much of a change at all so I didn't keep it in that long. The EL84 power tubes I tried were as follows: 1. JJs (29 bias point) 2. Genalex Gold Lion (25 bias point) 3. TAD - STR (41 bias point) 4. Tung-Sol (29 bias point) I really liked the JJs. If I went JJs I'd be happy. Then I tried the Gold Lions. Those were the tubes I really liked. Very nice breakup and smooth. The problem was after a couple weeks I went to bias them again and one read 19 and the other 31! I had to send them back. I think the new ones I got back have a lower bias point (can't confirm). Anyway, it changed the way they sounded. Not nearly as smooth and the breakup not as nice (more harsh again). The Tung-Sols were my least favorite of the bunch. To my surprise I ended up liking the TAD-STRs the best. I like how they break up and it did warm the amp up a little bit. FYI after playing about 15 hours on them the bias points were still dead on (24.8 and 24.1). I'm running now with the Sovtek LPS in the PI and the TAD-STRs. I am liking the way those tubes sound together in this amp. Two tubes that I didn't try (maybe someday) are the Mullard EL84 and the new Telefunken Black Diamond EL84 (enhanced JJs???). Anyone ever try these?? I hope this helps anyone looking for tube replacement ideas. Again this is very humbly submitted.

Anyone ever try a 12AT7 in the phase inverter spot in the DT25?? Results?? Good or bad??

Per MartinDorr I tried using the POD Master more significantly. I took out the attenuator. I was amazed. It took some doing to tweak tones but it was worth it. I noticed the high gain stuff needed more bass and fullness but the clean tones sounded really nice. I also noticed that if I turned up the channel volume it seemed to have nice results. Thanks again.

IMHO you would need an attenuator. I like the master volume on the amp very high - run those power tubes pretty hard (personal taste). The DT25 is loud. I have a Dr. Z's airbrake that I simply go from the 8 ohm out to the attenuator and then from the attenuator back to the cab (I recommend buying the head and cab). Very simple. What is like about the Dr. Z is that it has a bedroom dial that I will use to adjust my stage volume without affecting anything going out to the PA. So if monitors are loud or whatever I can adjust my stuff onstage without messing with other monitor mixes or house mix. I use the attenuator for practice, rehearsals and then also Sunday mornings. For this application the POD HD, DT25 and attenuator has worked great for me.

Here is my two cents. Little background info - I play for a church in a community center. The venue seats about a 1000. The PA is nice and the board is professional quality. We are on stage sometimes with curtains in the back and sometimes with the shell (this place is used for high school plays, orchestra concerts, etc.). We set everything up on Sunday morning so if there was an orchestra concert the night before then we have the shell, etc. So our stage noise situation changes week to week. We have real drums and use floor monitors (not in ear stuff). I have a POD HD 500 and a DT25 Head and 112 Cab - I use the L6 link. With what we are doing and this setup the DT25 is perfect. I use the DT as a monitor on stage and run the master at around 2 o'clock. I have a Dr. Zs attenuator. I run the XLR out of the DT Head to the house. In my very humble opinion you won't be disappointed with this amp. It is really really good. I too didn't think I would use as many amp models but I keep discovering more and more cool stuff that thing can do. Generally, we use pretty cleans delay stuff but at least one song a set is pretty crunchy and overdriven. I love the flexibility and being able to change on the fly. Personally I haven't had any issues with the XLR out (at mic level) - In fact, I think it has been easier on the sound guys. The one thing that does take a lot of work is balancing the patch volumes. With time and effort I've been able to get a balanced set each time I used it. I can't speak first hand about the L2t (I've never used it) or the Tubemeister so I can't compare. Again, in my very humble opinion you can't go wrong with the DT25.

The Peavey is the old version from the 90s (combo with a 112 extension closed back cab). I was comparing both the DT25 closed back cab with the Peavey closed back cab. The speaker is a Sheffield 1230 16-ohm. It's all subjective but I think the stock DT25 closed cab was much better. I'm interested in how people respond to the V30 more for future. I use the XLR out to the house now. If I could ever mic the speaker (in a back room) - I'd consider getting another DT25 head and change it up with the V30 and mic both cabs. Running more dual amp stuff, etc. Dreaming now of course.

I have an old Peavey Classic 30 with the 112E cab. One night at rehearsal I took the 112E cab from the Peavey just for kicks. It's 16 ohm speaker and I would switch back and forth with different patches, etc. Take it for what it's worth - the DT25 Cab sounded a ton better. I've never tried the V30.

Thanks guys. Brazzy I'm not familiar with the DT50 if you'll have room to bias while it sits in the amp. One word of caution is that my bias probes for the EL84s sit at just under 3/4 of an inch tall. I did look a some very good bias probes/meter but the probes were almost 2 1/2 inches tall - too tall for what I wanted. Good luck - let me know how it goes.

Ok not sure if anyone is still reading this discussion but I thought I would go ahead and share my experience/observations. I will try not to repeat anything previously stated in this discussion - just be careful if you do this. After a ton of research, talking with people and the forums (old forums as well) I decided to try to bias the amp myself. I have a DT25 Head and Cab. I probably would not have tried if I had the combo amp. After taking the back off, I figured I can do it without taking the amp out of the chassis (if I had the right equipment). After research I figured the best to bias this amp is with a dual bias probe & meter. I bought one from www.asharpfretworks.com. I'm very very pleased - it is a great piece of equipment (I bought the Quadstage BiasPro Q10 with the BiasPro 9C-S - 9 pin probes). IMHO this is PERFECT for the DT25 head. Briefly, it has a 1 ohm shunt resister (mA = mV) and the probes fit easily in the DT25 head (without taking it out). Just pop the bias probes in and put the tubes in and you're all set (see attached picture). I bought a matched set of EL84s (JJs) and a balanced 12AX7 (JJ) from www.eurotubes.com. Thank you forum members. Again very very good. Since it was so easy to test I decided to have a bit of fun. I tested the stock tubes, stock tubes with the new 12AX7 and then all new JJ tubes. Stock Tubes - V3 = 24.4 mV while the V2 = 22.5 mV. Note: The reading was about 1mV lower right at first but I let the tubes cook and warm up for about 10 minutes. Then they stayed pretty steady. (I love the dual bias probe b/c I can instantaneously switch back and forth seeing where they are at with no problem.) I put the new balanced JJ 12AX7 and kept the stock EH power tubes in. I just wanted to know if the bias reading would change much. They didn't - V3 = 24.3 & V2 = 21.7. Again, both readings at first were about 1mV lower and then stabilized in about 10 minutes. Finally, I put the JJs matched set in with the new 12AX7. This is where things kinda got weird at first. The original reading on both tubes were 20.0mV and 20.2mV - amazing. I let that sit for about 2 or 3 minutes. As you know the amp calls for 25mV +/- 3mV. I turned it slightly so that one tube was at 25mV and the other ended up around 24.1mV. I let the tubes cook there for about 10 inutes - one tube kept ramping up and moving up in mV while the other tube grew at a much slower rate or stayed steady. After 15 minutes one tube stopped claiming at 27.9 mV while the other tube was at 24.1mV. During this time I did turn the bias down a few times. I switched bias probes as well as where the tubes sat just to make sure it isn't the bias meter/probes and the tube placement/amp. The same thing happened. It sat still for several minutes and then once I adjusted the bias one tube's bias level grew much faster. I thought I had a bad tube at first. I tried again the next day. I remembered that both tubes would start and sit very steady until I adjusted the bias. I figured I'm the weak link in this process. Again, both tubes started at 23.4 and 23.5. After ten minutes it didn't move. I very very slightly made an adjustment to 25.1 and 25.0. After 20-25 minutes of cooking they read 25. and 25.8. Amazing. Three things changed from the night before: 1. It's not 1am (haha). 2. I made the adjustment much much slower and didn't have to back it off. 3. I cleaned the tube pins with contact cleaner (as per eurotubes advice from their website). I believe the amp doesn't like the drastic changes in the bias screw from the night before (I may have moved the screw too fast, etc.). Before I sat down to write this I hooked it up on last time: Original reading was 24.8 & 25.7. After 30 minutes they read 26.2 & 25.7. Amazingly close for a matched pair. If that got a little long - sorry. Here is what I thought of how they sounded. I didn't notice a change with just the balanced JJ 12AX7. I thought when I put all new JJ tubes the amp sounded much better. I loved the amp before and I like it even more now. Not sure if it is the tubes being new as compared to old EH tubes or if the JJs just sound better (at least in my opinion). I took the same approach as boyce89976. I hooked it up like I do when I play with the Line6 Link and my tones. I tried a few of main amp models (all pre). I run the DT master steady at 2 o'clock (with an attenuator). I tested an AC30 patch - I agree with ice9mike - wow really really clear and sound very nice. The Blackface Lux Vib was more bright and clean - the breakup was nicer. J800 sounded much more deep and full - very very nice. I loved it. The PHD and Treadplate weren't as profound as the other three but I still feel it was an improvement. I wish I could have recorded new the EHs and then recorded the new JJs to switch back and forth. I definitely recommend trying out the JJs. I can't wait to try it out at rehearsal.

Hey that sounds good. I am going to order a matched set along with a Balanced 12AX7. I'm excited about trying them out. Thanks for the review. I'm going to bias my old tubes (from your advice) before I change them out just to see where it was running at now. I'm making the assumption that the one should get the balanced 12ax7. I may try out the preferred series (premium el84) tubes someday as well. thanks again.

Thanks. Sounds like I may try those out and keep the stock tubes as a back up like geppert suggested. Did you change the preamp tube as well or just the power tubes? Is your amp the combo or just the head?? I opened the back last night for the first time. I noticed the preamp tube was a little loose - probably from lugging it back and forth to rehearsals and such. I have the DT25 head (not the combo). I've changed tubes before in amps but never have had to adjust the bias (I have a Peavey Classic 30 with a 112E cab). Looking in at the DT25 head for the first time - it seems as though if you had a 9 pin bias probe (or two) and small Phillips head screw driver you would not have to remove the chassis. It seems you could test the bias with the probes as long as the probes aren't too tall so as to bump into the top of the amp. Seems safer if the chassis is not out on the table - still will probably take it to a tech. Thanks again.

Cool. In what ways do you like them better?? Did you also replace the 12AX7? Has anyone tried the Preferred Series 7189 (Premium)??

That would be awesome. From the little bit I read up on the various types of tubes - The JJ ones seemed to be the most intriguing. Thanks.

I've had my DT25 for over a year now. Most likely within the next few months to a year I'll need to replace the tubes. While I have time to research and figure out what may be the best ones to try I thought I was ask other forum members. I looked all over last night for recommendations for replacement EL84s but I can't find a thread. I remember the old forums had a few (at least I thought). Any recommendations for those who replaced their tubes would be greatly appreciated. Even recommendation for the 12XA7 would be nice (I'm still not even sure what the 12XA7 does in the DT25). My understanding is the 12XA7 will last a lot longer than the EL84s. I play at church where we have a great variety of styles and tones. Anywhere from very clean (chime) delays to overdriven humbucker distorted tones. I use a lot of different models but the Blackface Lux Vib, J800 & PHD Motorway are my "go to" models. I have used about 5 other models for various songs but those are the main ones. I use all pre models. I use the L6Link. I run the master on the DT25 at 2 or 3 o'clock ever time I play (with an attenuator). I like the way it sounds now but just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or opinions on replacement tubes. I'm not opposed to buying a new set of matched tubes Sovteks (what is in there now) but always open to change. I know its all subjective and seasoned to personal taste but I would greatly appreciate the feedback. thanks.