MIDI PC Toggle for all !

[pilottes]

I know I've been through this path before but after two months with the Helix, I finally came up with a solution to the MIDI PC limits, thanks to a fellow member. An other purchase would be necessary. 

 

But I realise the CC Toggle functionnality is it. From a software development point of view, The code is already there. Cut and paste and change a few things to get PC Toggle. At nearly no expense we would get a mean of controlling any MIDI controllable Amps like JVM, H&K and more.

 

Please ,please make it happen before I worn my pant at the knees. It would be much more elegant than convert CC# message to PC message via a 3rd party box.

 

D_I? You alreadfy looked into this, I remember. What do you think? 

[soundog]

I dunno.  Not as many MIDI controller support PC as do Note on/off and CCs. Why doesn't Line 6 just allow toggle via CC value 0 = off and CC value 127 = on? That way my external footswitch control with LEDs would always be lit properly when an FX block is toggled on.

[pilottes]

I see. You want to control the Helix that way. You have the inverse dilema. Most of the MIDI amp I know support PC message only. So my Helix footswitch act as you described. Lit unlit tap tap its a big mess. I decided to use a single channel from my amp and does the other voicing within the Helix.

[soundog]

The reason I suggested CC for toggle is that, in MIDI, PC messages only carry the program change number but not additional data, so can't carry any toggle "on or off" information. With a CC message, you can include variable data. So CC commands can be used for toggle (usually data values of 0-63 = off and 63-127 = on) if a MIDI device supports that feature.

[pilottes]

Hum ?... that's my point why we need PC Toggle.  JVM, H&K amps and others, only support PC messages.

[phil_m]

I'm a little confused what you're asking for. As noted above, there really isn't such a thing as PC toggle. A PC message is simply a single message telling whatever device is connected to load the patch or preset associated with that message. You can already assign a PC message to a footswitch.

[pilottes]

Really sorry if I was not clear. I agreed that MIDI PC contains only 1 parameter, the preset number. All the amps I refered to will react to a PC message by recalling the state of the amps as a PC change from 0 to 127. We can program an Helix footwitch to send a unique PC message and have say 3 footswitches for 3 different channels on the amp. 

 

The problem is that you really want these footswitches to work in latch mode. To be able to add EQ, REVERB, DELAY, whatever for the duration of the part you need to do. And you want to see the state of lit or unlit. Pressing again the footwitch to revert to the base state, say the clean channel of the amp, is not possible presently. To do this you need the ability to program a different PC message number when you press (lit) than when you press (unlit). What I call PC Toggle as a similar functionnality (but not identical) as what is already programmed in the Helix as CC Toggle.

 

Working with momentary mode footwitches is a no go obviously since you loose the ability of adding needed FX blocks and have no visual status

 

As I said, same idea and practically the same code to implement. Little effort and ideal payoff to control recent MIDI amps.

 

Hope I explained it better this time. But I'm willing to do it again since this limitation as been nagging me since I bought the Helix. 

[Digital_Igloo]

I dunno.  Not as many MIDI controller support PC as do Note on/off and CCs. Why doesn't Line 6 just allow toggle via CC value 0 = off and CC value 127 = on? That way my external footswitch control with LEDs would always be lit properly when an FX block is toggled on.

 

Because there's no such thing as a footswitch on/off. Each stomp in Helix can have up to 8 items assigned to it. Pressing FS2 could turn three blocks on, turn another three blocks off, set an Amp block's gain to 4.5, turn a Delay block's feedback down to 34%, and spit out a CV message to a vintage Moog pedal, all simultaneously. "On" and "off" don't really apply in this case. The switch's LED reflects the state of the currently focused item (touch repeatedly to cycle through multiple-assigned items), not the state of the switch.

 

However, On and Off would apply if we were to allow for individual block bypass via assignable MIDI CC; I would imagine receiving a value of 0-63 would turn the block off and receiving a value of 64-127 would turn the block on. Helix doesn't currently do this, but it's in our gargantuan list of things we may or may not ever get to.

 

PC Toggle is doable. Vote that sucka up!

[pilottes]

Yes! Yes! It's doable! 

[soundog]

.... On and Off would apply if we were to allow for individual block bypass via assignable MIDI CC; I would imagine receiving a value of 0-63 would turn the block off and receiving a value of 64-127 would turn the block on. Helix doesn't currently do this, but it's in our gargantuan list of things we may or may not ever get to.

 

AH! I get it, thank you. Yes, block bypass via CC "toggle" would be useful. I use external controls, buttons, and/or foot switches that can toggle CC data (e.g. 0/127) in concert with their associated LEDs. Currently I have to ensure the controller/LED is "in sync" with the associated Helix foot switch (emulation CC), before I change preset. Not a huge deal, but in the frenzy of live performance its just another thing to keep track of. 

[ricksteruk]

I use a H&K switchblade amp and I've just been programming some of my covers bands tones into the Helix.  In complicated patches I have just ended up using a clean amp tone and then distortion blocks on the Helix for dirt.  In simple patches it's fine to use PC to switch amp channels.

 

I do see what you mean about PC toggle - it might be useful if you just have 2 amp tones in a song - but how would it work if you had 3 amp tones?

 

Let's go crazy and say you had 4 amp tones in a song - each requiring a separate PC message.

Tones 1/2 were on FS8 and 3/4 were on FS9.   1 and 3 in Dim/OFF and 2 and 4 in Lit/ON

 

Let's say the helix program has an instant PC to get you started on tone 1.

 

Then if you press FS8 you will get tone 2.  Makes sense with PC toggle - it would work - you could switch fx on and off

 

If you press FS9 you would get tone 3.. or would it be tone 4?  If it's in "DimOFF" mode before you press it will send tone 4 when you press FS9 right?

But pressing FS9 would not be able to easily turn off/on any FX blocks you'd got for your two FS8 tones.  Bummer!

 

Then say you want to go back to tone 2....  FS8 is already in lit mode remember?  So if you press FS8 you will get tone 1 not tone 2.  If you pressed FS9 you'd get tone 3 not tone 2.    You'd need to press FS8 twice to get back to Tone 2.    And you'd still have any FX blocks to toggle off from FS9.

 

Complicated huh?

 

Basically The whole thing totally would fall apart if you wanted more than 2 amp PC tones in a song.

 

A proper scene mode is a much better idea!  

Easiest way would just to have 4 buttons - one for each tone to select each scene with whatever FX and amp PC's you wanted.

[pilottes]

I can see you already thought about this!  The PC Toggle would only make it possible to work as long as you have discipline. I mean you'd have to remember to turn off the footswicth before you selec another one. I admit after a few cold ones its receipe for ... adventure. I am not familiar with scenes in the M13 but as I collect from other comments it would greatly enhance versatility. At a minimum, if we could create something like a group say 3 footwitches for 3 amp channels with a mutualy exclusive behavior. Only the last one pressed it activated. That also could work.

[Presonid]

Noise Issue with Midi Amp Channel switching and Helix.

 

Bug

Some amps like Blackstar Series 1 or Marshall JVM and many others offers the ability to control channel selection only via MIDI Program change messages (CV Out not available).

Currently use a Blackstar S1 Amp 4CM and Helix Midi to switch amp real channels, but the problem is I get a big glitch noise when switching patches with Helix. It is actually a major show stopper for live gigging.

 

Steps

1. Set one preset to change the real amp channel via Helix midi.

2. Set other preset with other diferent amp channel via Helix midi.

3. Change between this two presets and enjoy the glitch noise.

 

Expected

No glitch noise changing amp channels via midi with presets (only a soft latency).

 

Actual

Big glitch noise changing amp channesl via midi with presets.

 

System

Helix , firmware 1.10.0.

 

Legacy

HD500 does not have this issue. The real amp channel switching does not have this issue.

 

Workaround

Change channels with footswitches inside a preset helps, but doesn't work without scenes (not available in Helix. Even if we need only two channels with different effects, we need to click on presets, because one FootSwitch can't change two midi program channels.

[Presonid]

Noise Issue with Midi Amp Channel switching and Helix.

 

Bug

Some amps like Blackstar Series 1 or Marshall JVM and many others offers the ability to control channel selection only via MIDI Program change messages (CV Out not available).

 

Currently use a Blackstar S1 Amp 4CM and Helix Midi to switch amp real channels, but the problem is I get a big glitch noise when switching patches with Helix. It is actually a major show stopper for live gigging.

 

Steps

1. Set one preset to change the real amp channel via Helix midi.

2. Set other preset with other diferent amp channel via Helix midi.

3. Change between this two presets and enjoy the glitch noise.

 

Expected

No glitch noise changing amp channels via midi with presets (only a soft latency).

 

Actual

Big glitch noise changing amp channesl via midi with presets.

 

System

Helix , firmware 1.10.0.

 

Legacy

HD500 does not have this issue. The real amp channel switching does not have this issue.

 

Workaround

Change channels with footswitches inside a preset helps, but doesn't work without scenes (not available in Helix. Even if we need only two channels with different effects, we need to click on presets, because one FootSwitch can't change two midi program channels.

Issue soved with the Snapshot funtionality added with firmware 2.00. By the way now the midi channel change is perfect!!!

[PMJNugent]

Hi Pilottes - I entirely agree with you and I am facing the same dilemma. 

 

I have a H&K amp and would ideally like to use a single footswitch (latching) to change from one amp preset to another (lit) and back again (dim).  I can't see how this can be done without a PC toggle command.  Clearly this doesn't yet exist but would be the only solution.  I currently have to use one footswitch per preset.  Have you or anyone else come up with any alternative ideas ???

 

 

 

[pilottes]

I have to admit... I have not used my JVM410 in more than two years. An external midi controller might be able to do this but it sort of defeat the purpose of a MFX...

[christroiani1]

Hi,

 

I just started playing with the Bypass block MIDI CC function on Helix LT.  I have an external device - an HD500X that has been a large paperweight until now - as a MIDI IN to the Helix LT.  I assigned FS1 on the HD500x to send CC#10 to the Helix LT on a block.  It kind of works.  If I press HD500X FS1 it will enable the block, but if I press it again it won't disable it.  I assumed that it would work as a toggle, but that appears to not be the case.  If I disable the block again on the Helix LT interface and press HD500X FS1 again it reenables, so I know that the HD500X is triggering every time.  Any ideas?