How does the M20D record ?

[sapca]

Hi,

 

When you record the individual inputs on a SD card, does the M20D record pre or post fader ?

 

Kr,

 

Emiel

[Rewolf48]

Post trim, Pre everything else.

[sapca]

THX  :)

[StuMur]

...also - could someone please explain what the three recording options to SD card are specifically for? Why are their the three options - "Record Inputs and Main Mix", "Record Inputs Only" and "Record Main Mix Only".. What benefit is it to have that flexibility in recording either/or of those? Example?

[silverhead]

Here are a few examples:

 

Record Inputs and Main Mix: you might use this option when you want to make a base recording, then adjust the overall mix during playback of the dry recorded channels. At any time you can playback the recorded main mix to listen carefully and identify points where a change to a specific channel is desirable. Then make that change and playback the dry channels again. Over many iterations you create a new 'main mix' that you play and compare to the playback of the originally recorded main mix. Having perfected your overall mix you SAVE the setup for the gig.

 

Record Inputs only: you would use this when you have no intention of adjusting the mix on the M20D. You're just capturing the dry channels for transfer to a DAW for VST processing.

 

Record Main Mix only: again you have no intention of using the M20D for further mixing. You just want to record a live take for transfer to a PC and MP3 formatting.

[StuMur]

Thanks Silverhead.. That clarifies beautifully, and helps me immensely. Can I ask you what your honest thoughts are on the quality of the M20D's mic preamps - are they really genuinely of a premium quality? Also how good are the onboard effects? Having experimented a fair bit with the M20D now, these are the two areas of concern I have. I can make the rest of the band sound okay I guess, but as much as I try, I can't make my own vocal mic channel (I use a Beta 58 mic) sound any good like I could on my old analogue desk. Perhaps it's in the effects.. not sure. I'm a skinny white guy with no tone (of course- lol!), kinda like a thin Jon Bon Jovi kind of tone.. I need bottom eq boosted like crazy or I sound horrid. Tried that though, and just can't get it to happen. The Allen & Heath QU-16 was the other alternative before I bought the M20D. I presume it may have sounded much more premium (subjective term!), but who knows.. Would be great if the M20D had user-swappable presets.

[silverhead]

I have no issues with the quality of the mic preamps and onboard FX. The M20d works very well for my needs. I sometimes find the factory presets need some 'deep tweaking' but I find all the necessary tools are there to do more than I need or can knowledgeably handle.

 

Of course this is all very subjective. If you are getting better results with other equipment then by all means go with the other stuff.

[66d35]

I also use an A&H Qu (also a QSC Touchmix) as well as the M20D. There are various operational differences... and the FX are different, but ALL of these can sound extremely good. I would not say any one of them has real superiority. Certainly in terms of 'quality sound' they all deliver. If you are having a hard time getting a good vocal sound - it is not the mixer. I'd try experimenting with some different microphones, to start with. That can make a huge difference and they do tend to be very individual..

[StuMur]

Thanks for the mic tip mate, it's one I agree with as I just this week bought a few different old Sennheisers to try out.. The old Beta 58 sounds fine on my analogue system though, so I know it's definitely whatever I'm doing on the desk that is the issue rather than the mic as such. To be more precise, beyond my mic sound, I struggle to get good separation between instruments with the M20D so far (our instrumentation is: elec grand piano, elec guitar, 3 vox, elec drumkit and a laptop backing track) - I'll keep trying though as I really want this to work. 30 years of being a live gigging musician, and only a third of that pulling my own live sound from stage as I/the band plays, so I guess I just have to improve my soundguy chops - lol!

[bimoto]

HELLO TO ALL. i am news forumer.

i am a italian "BOY" of 57 years old😜 and i use with pleasure the mixer stageline.

I can record with the "fast" 20" demo.

 

But if I try to use the record on SDCARD....its not work.

As soon as I open RECORD you see the cursor turn and spins....he never stops.

 

If I try to do NEW FOLDER it tells me " NOT POSSIBLE".

 

I tried with 2 different SDCARD. I tried to format the card on the PC Windows........but it does not work.

 

What am I doing wrong ?

 

sorry for my google translate...

 

Thank you!

[silverhead]

You need to format the SD Card in FAT32 format. This is not the default format on PC Windows - you may need to download a utility to help you do that. Google is your friend to find that.

 

After formatting the SD card in FAT32 on Windows the M20d should be able to use it.

[bimoto]

grazie, i do it

[CACHERA]

Here are a few examples:

 

Record Inputs and Main Mix: you might use this option when you want to make a base recording, then adjust the overall mix during playback of the dry recorded channels. At any time you can playback the recorded main mix to listen carefully and identify points where a change to a specific channel is desirable. Then make that change and playback the dry channels again. Over many iterations you create a new 'main mix' that you play and compare to the playback of the originally recorded main mix. Having perfected your overall mix you SAVE the setup for the gig.

 

Record Inputs only: you would use this when you have no intention of adjusting the mix on the M20D. You're just capturing the dry channels for transfer to a DAW for VST processing.

 

Record Main Mix only: again you have no intention of using the M20D for further mixing. You just want to record a live take for transfer to a PC and MP3 formatting.

Hi

With the Main Mix, are the FX recorded ?

Thank you in advance for your answer.

Phil

[Rewolf48]

Yes - main mix records the L+R outputs with everything that is being sent to them

[CACHERA]

Yes - main mix records the L+R outputs with everything that is being sent to them

Ok thank you very much.

So the inputs only are dry ? Without effects ?

 

And i notice one thing. The level of the main mix record is very low. I don't see where i can adjust it.

[Rewolf48]

Input recording are post trim - pre-everything else - these recordings

 

All recordings are 24bit depth so can support being amplified quite a bit before any degradation. The level recorded is that being sent to the main mix (power amp stage) - raise the levels of the individual mixes and lower the master volume knob.

 

[the last bit is theory as I don't record main mix - if somebody knows better then do tell!]

[CACHERA]

I don't understand very well for the inputs because silverhead wrote they are dry , so i think without fx because he send them to a Daw.

[silverhead]

Yes the inputs are recorded dry, before any FX. The Main Mix is recorded post channel faders but pre Master Volume. As Rewolf48 suggests, increase the level of each channel if you want to increase the overall recorded level of the Main Mix.

[CACHERA]

Ok perfect. Thank you all for your help and answer.

[StuMur]

Does anyone know what the specific technical differences are between recording 'Inputs and Main Mix' to the SD card, and the Quick Capture feature, other than the 20 second limitation of course, and also that Quick Capture isn't saveable..? Is it literally the same recording flexibility, just longer.. no difference in anything? Wondering if one is better than the other for repeatedly trying to perfect our live mix recordings my band's made - ie tweaking soundcheck etc. I've just been soundchecking with our SD card recordings, but should we be making a fresh Quick Capture recording at every gig and soundchecking that instead? Would prefer to use the saved SD card recordings, as some of us can't get to the gig early to do a Quick Capture.

[Rewolf48]

20 second recording is just inputs but is the same as recording to SD.  Personally I have only used quick capture a couple of times because I am also one of the band and 20 seconds isn't long enough, so I always use the SD card to capture a whole song and work from that. We are big on dynamics so you need loud and quiet sections which 20 seconds just doesn't do.

 

Using a recording from a previous gig to set-up is better than nothing if some of the band are not there yet, it will at least allow some compensation for the room, but there are always variations if you have live drums or backline that you just can't adjust for unless they are all playing and even sometimes when the gig starts with all the sound dampeners in the room (audience)

[StuMur]

I always use the SD card to capture a whole song and work from that.

Thanks Rewolf. When doing so, do you just record the inputs only and soundcheck that back, or do you record inputs AND main mix too for soundchecking?

[Rewolf48]

Just Inputs - when you play back they are inserted back on the original channels before all processing, so that you are really mixing as if everybody is playing live.

 

Main MIx recording is really so that you get a recording of the final performance to review after the show.

 

The only consideration is that if the musicians are making a significant sound level by themselves (drums, guitar amps) relative to the room then you need to allow for that when setting their levels

[SiWatts69]

Late to the party here, but, like ReWolf, we "soundcheck and record a full song (2 actually - as I'm a sax player and have both tenor and bari on individual channels)

 

We trim, then do a quick play through of some short sections and get monitors sorted first (without the FOH levels up) and then play and record our two full songs.

Our guitarist (who is a better mixer than me) then does a "cans" mix before bringing the main outs up to get a room level. If we've time we may then do a quick blast with everything on just to make sure that the backline (which we deliberately run as quiet as we can) isn't bleeding through too much.

 

The "Inputs only" recording is brilliant for this.

 

As stated above, the quick capture doesn't get used. 20 seconds might be OK for some smaller setups (just a guitar drums and bass) but with multiple backing vocals and brass, all of which aren't in all the time, the 20 seconds isn't adequate.

 

I can't actually remember the last time I did a main outs recording.

 

What I tend to do is inputs only recordings. If I want a main outs recording, I will play the full set(s) back on the M20d back at base and record directly from the analogue main outs direct into my DAW to create the output mix recording. Enables me to tweak it slightly to compensate for backline not being present. If the recording is worthy of it, I can then pull in the individual tracks and do a full mix from dry in the DAW.

[StuMur]

..and the award for 'most helpful/comprehensive answer on a Line 6 forum ever' goes to..

 

Thanks SiWatts - that's an astonishingly helpful response.. very clear. It's great to hear you're running a fairly full/live gig with it too (horns guys etc on top of the band). Btw, I need a sax player for a corp gig next week. I'm in Brisbane, Australia, if you're free to dep in? Haha.

 

Mate, can I ask if you've tweaked the verbs etc much? Or the eq's etc for the vox preset options they give you? I've never been quite so successful with the M20d's standard presets. They kinda sound a little bland to me, and I find I have to tweak everything a lot (which has so far meant MANY hours of prep tweaking and annoying the neighbours) to get remotely close to the expression/clarity I want. Those quick tweak x/y pads only tweak about 3db either way, but deep tweak goes much further, which is great, but still takes me hours of tweaking deep parameters everywhere before I have a clear, useable mix to take to gigs. Clearly I'm not a premium soundguy (but I have been doing sound at our weekly gigs for years on analogue boards - which are so easy), but just wondered if you find the need to tweak settings much beyond the presets - the eq and fx/gates and compressors etc? It's a very time-consuming thing for me, and clearly the learning curve goes on for me yet - but it seems there's certainly loads more tweaking required than just hitting say the "Bright Vocal" preset to sound dynamic enough to go & gig. It's withering actually. Haven't even started with dragging monitors along yet -  :o. I only ask as I shouldn't be a million miles away from what you guys are doing, and getting great, fairly quick results it seems. I got the desk to make my on-stage mixing easier. But so far, it's so much the opposite.

[SiWatts69]

Thanks SiWatts - that's an astonishingly helpful response.. very clear. It's great to hear you're running a fairly full/live gig with it too (horns guys etc on top of the band). Btw, I need a sax player for a corp gig next week. I'm in Brisbane, Australia, if you're free to dep in? Haha.

 

No worries. The nature of forums is that (hopefully) we all take/learn a little but at the same time we give a little back when the time comes.

Forums have often been my useful resource when trying to crack a problem. BUT if I'm entirely honest, the Line6 rig has been a breeze to use so I've not often had to ask for help.

 

Maybe not quite what you imagine though in terms of running a fairly full/live gig; Lead vox, Guitar, Bass, Drums, 3x backing vox and me on one or other sax. We're only a 5 piece ;-) BUT we were (when I bought the rig) a 7 piece with keys and a female vox and 2 extra backing vox on top.

 

As for depping in Brisbane... Can I get there on the bus from South Yorkshire?

Mate, can I ask if you've tweaked the verbs etc much? Or the eq's etc for the vox preset options they give you?

Can't say we've needed to.

That is however, quite possibly as a result of our band having a particularly awesome singer. I'm saying that, but I don't do the majority of the mixing for our band. I started us out with a standard presets setup (Male with Reverb for our singer) and after that, only our guitarist has done anything with his particular channel. I did once try upping the level of reverb on his channel but it wasn't successful. He has such a great voice, fx just spoil it!

Surprised though that you are trying to tweak so deeply before you arrive at a venue... too many variables introduced by the room will doom you to failure more often than not.

[StuMur]

 

Surprised though that you are trying to tweak so deeply before you arrive at a venue... too many variables introduced by the room will doom you to failure more often than not.

Thanks mate. Yes, I did turn up to the first few M20d gigs just using presets, winging it like a superhero - lol! I wouldn't normally tweak pre-arrival, due to the vaguaries of different rooms, but that failed due to me having to mix foh from stage - too hard with a new digi format that I'm not used to. So I've been tweaking in the back shed ever since - it is sounding very good now, though limitless due to the digi nature of it vs analogue, where you have a knob, and you just turn it! So I'm constantly trying new things and expanding on the mix I've got already - removing bleeds with gates etc.

 

Anyway, to clarify, I absolutely adore the M20d. I kind of hoped I could bin my analogue A&H desk (awesome, but large footprint) for the tiny and much more comprehensive digi M20d. I'm sure I'll be at that point in a few weeks time, but for now, it's back to the shed to tweak even deeper..  :blink: