IR referencing and hi cut

[shanecgriffo]

It would be great to have two additional Helix Mic Cab Parameters. One for Mic Position (medial to lateral: Cap Center, Cap Edge, Mid Cone, Cone Edge); and one for Mic Aim/Orientation (0 to 90 Degrees).

 

Depending on whether Line 6 originally captured 3D acoustic data, it may be feasible to reimage the data based on these Parameters. Otherwise, it would almost certainly require the substantial task of re-capturing the cabs with each of the mics. Either way, it would vastly enhance the sound of Helix's built in cabs, likely with additional DSP overhead (subject to whatever algorithm optimization magic the coding teams are using). On the other hand, L6 may have intentionally left this for 3rd Party IRs.

i very much agree, from memory amplitube had this sort of thing .. i really prefer the sound when it is closer to the cone edge and then you can dial in a bit of hi as needed. It's something i read once in a mixing book.. the author said this method captures a bit of the feeling of the air moving at the speaker, whearas right in front of the cap the highs are too predominant and can be too harsh to boost. I've tried it and the high frequencies you get when boosting at the cone edge are more sweet. You can only do it on helix as it stands now, with certain IR's.

[amsdenj]

Checkout the mic position in this very nice video. Hear that nice warm tone. The mic is positioned very close to the cone edge.

[mikegibbo52]

I have been using Global EQ for the high and low cuts across all my patches, but I have just started using IR's and have still found the highs too cutting. So some questions

 

1. When using IR's do you remove the speaker cabinets from the path?

2. Do you need to cut highs and lows from the speaker cabs and IR's if you use Global EQ

 

My Global EQ cut is -100 / 48k but some speakers like Cali V30 seem way too bright and tinie still.

[zooey]

Typically an IR serves the same purpose as a cab, so yes, you'd use one or the other, or if both, then in parallel, like plugging an amp into multiple cabs.

 

OTOH, do whatever you like :) That's one cool thing about modelers, you can do things that are physically (or financially!) impossible. Put a fuzz box after the cab, plug an amp into another amp into a wah, whatever you come up with that sounds good to you.

 

It seems like the built in cabs have a lot of top end, leaving you to filter it out if you want. That probably sounds better overall than removing it from the IR file itself, then trying to EQ back in what's not really there.

 

Many people try not to use the global EQ for patch tone shaping, reserving it for differences between rooms.

 

HTH.

[DunedinDragon]

I have been using Global EQ for the high and low cuts across all my patches, but I have just started using IR's and have still found the highs too cutting. So some questions

 

1. When using IR's do you remove the speaker cabinets from the path?

2. Do you need to cut highs and lows from the speaker cabs and IR's if you use Global EQ

 

My Global EQ cut is -100 / 48k but some speakers like Cali V30 seem way too bright and tinie still.

 

I think almost everyone ends up applying hi/lo cuts to some degree on cabinets or IRs.  Sometimes that's not the case particularly if you combine cabinets or depending on the which setup of an IR you use.  But the hi/lo cuts applied vary from amp to amp and based on the cabinet/IR used.  That's why it's a really bad idea to put hi/lo cuts in the Global EQ.  Just use your ears and adjust it to taste in each patch.

[HonestOpinion]

From Ben Adrian over on TGP:

 

Just opened the code to check. The crossover filters are 4th order (4 pole) low pass and high pass. This is 24 dB per octave. IMO, this would be considered a pretty hard filter.

 

Cabs and IRs have 2nd order (2 pole), which is 12 dB per octave. I'd consider this a medium cutoff.

 

EQs have a 2nd order (2 pole) filter for the models which contain the Low and High Cut parameters, but there is also a little extra voicing thrown in with an additional filter to make it more musical.

 

Does anyone know which block Ben Adrian was referring to in his quote referencing "Crossover filters" as 4 pole and 24db? Where is there a "Crossover filter" on the Helix? I feel like I missed some piece of information earlier in this topic or perhaps in TGP where this quote was extracted.

[zooey]

3 band compressor maybe? Not that I know what he meant...

[aleclee]

Does anyone know which block Ben Adrian was referring to in his quote referencing "Crossover filters" as 4 pole and 24db? Where is there a "Crossover filter" on the Helix? I feel like I missed some piece of information earlier in this topic or perhaps in TGP where this quote was extracted.

Isn't there a crossover block for splitting signal between paths? That's what I assumed he was talking about.

[HonestOpinion]

Isn't there a crossover block for splitting signal between paths? That's what I assumed he was talking about.

 

There is a split and a merge block but I am not sure exactly what this has to do with high and low cuts.

[aleclee]

There is a split and a merge block but I am not sure exactly what this has to do with high and low cuts.

I thought there was a split that acted as a crossover

 

Edit: Just confirmed on page 31 of the HX manual.

[HonestOpinion]

I thought there was a split that acted as a crossover

 

Edit: Just confirmed on page 31 of the HX manual.

 

Thanks aleclee, nice research! That "Frequency" parameter on the crossover option on the split block is almost definitely what was being referred to. 

[MarkSalore]

Hi everyone

I am experiencing the same issues with the over exaggerated high-end and the shrillness of most of the cabinets.

I am certainly not an expert by any means but I cannot imagine a guitar tone sounding over 5K?

From what I'm reading in the thread, it seems like physical speaker cabinets have a natural slope/Cut off in the high-end.

 

Obviously I would think a guitar speaker not having a Tweeter in it would generally sound in the mid range frequencies.

I'm not sure why the speaker cabinets as all the way up to 20 K?

Perhaps as I read it could be because the helix can be used for vocals and keyboards etc., but who would use a vocal or keyboard through a guitar cabinet?

 

I have recently been experimenting with a high and low cuts. 

What I have noticed is most of the cabinets, not all need to have a cut off between 4 and 5K. 

Leaving the high and low cut wide open and using the treble control to back off the high-end does not seem to work, as you end up losing all your tone.

The only thing that seems to get rid of the ice pick, shrillness is a high and rolloff, again about four or 5K for a lot of the cabinets. 

 

Someone about suggested that there should be a slope for the high cut and low cut rolloff which I think would be a great idea. 

 

So finally my question…

Can this affect/ solution be achieved by inserting a 10 band graphic EQ after the cabinet block and cutting all the frequencies starting at 4K to about Half?

It is obviously unclear to me if you do a 4K cut off does completely block any frequencies above 4K? Or do some of this frequencies come through?

 

Any suggestions about the best way to handle this would be appreciated

I guess I just have a problem with having my high-end cut at about 4K thinking I'm doing something wrong?

If I don't use my high-end cut off most of these amplifiers are completely useless to me and I would have to think a lot of other people would have the same issues?

 

I've read extensively on various threads and other websites how people think the helix is too shrill and sounds to digital and I think the reason is because most people do not go into the speaker cabinets and roll the low and high-end, and would not think of doing this because it's just not something a guitar player ever thought about.

 

Any suggestions or comments are obviously welcome

Thank you to everybody for their insight on this topic

Regards

Mark

[Lachdanan0121]

 

 

I've read extensively on various threads and other websites how people think the helix is too shrill and sounds to digital and I think the reason is because most people do not go into the speaker cabinets and roll the low and high-end, and would not think of doing this because it's just not something a guitar player ever thought about.

 

Mark

I suspect this is a large contributing reason for this perception. That, and blind brand loyalty. (fanboyism)

 

Yes, an EQ after the cab can achieve similar results. (albeit with different curves/slopes)

[tommasoferrarese]

Keep in mind that the 20k figure isn't referring to the cab's range, but to the mic channel's.

If you are used to mixing, you should know that at times it's preferable not to cut too much of a guitar signal, or to use a shelf instead of a cut. I think most of the trouble here comes from Helix being a great piece of recording gear as well, and this can lead to some confusion, maybe. It's always better to have more spectrum available, and to eq it at a later stage.

I actually don't use a lot of cut (if at all) on the cabs, neither live or recording, and feel I'm getting results very close to those I get miking my real amps..

You should think of treating your signal as you would do while mixing at the FOH or in the studio, so if a cut off signal is what you like, experiment with the abundant eq options we have till you find your signature eq.

[amsdenj]

What we really need is dynamic EQ. S-Gear Wayfarer (and other amps) have a Hi Cut control in the power amp section. You can turn the Amp Drive up, and the preamp gain down to the point that you get nice warm clipping from the power amp. Then back off the volume control on your guitar. That high cut disappears when the power amp stops clipping, just like the sag disappears. The guitar becomes bright, sparkly and clean. But turn the guitar volume up, and as the power amp distorts, it sags more and gets more hi cut. This is the perfect solution as it lets you completely control the drive and tone with just your guitar volume.