Preset Level Instant commands

[guix]

There should be a preset level instant commands.... snapshots level are ok but i also want to run instant commands only at preset recall time.

they actually existed before the snapshots so a bit of a step back.......

[silverhead]

Not sure what you mean by instant commands. Do you mean midi commands?

[guix]

Not sure what you mean by instant commands. Do you mean midi commands?

 

any commands, instant commands can be also CV or ext amp commands...

[phil_m]

Any instant commands you have assigned to the snapshot that's active when you saved the preset will be shot out when you go to that preset. So I don't agree with you that the instant command implementation with snapshots was a step back. They perform the same way they did before with preset changes, it's just now you can send commands out with snapshot changes as well.

[guix]

Any instant commands you have assigned to the snapshot that's active when you saved the preset will be shot out when you go to that preset. So I don't agree with you that the instant command implementation with snapshots was a step back. They perform the same way they did before with preset changes, it's just now you can send commands out with snapshot changes as well.

 

Yes but the problem is i want to send commands at preset change time and never send them again during snapshot changes, that used to be possible and it is not now.

So yes a step forward having command been sent with snapshots but clearly there is a functionality we used to have and we don't.

In this case I want to send PCs to another unit, and before it would work once  at preset change, now every time i use my main snapshot it sends the PC again, which i don't want to. I am using the helix as Midi Clock master to this other unit and a PC change gets the unit tempo to oscillate as it tries to lock again. And no that unit's Programs numbers don't match my helix so I don't want to use the PC send option as the numbers are not, and cannot be, the same

 

There should be a page called preset instant commands!

[phil_m]

Yes but the problem is i want to send commands at preset change time and never send them again during snapshot changes, that used to be possible and it is not now.

 

I get what you're saying, but it's still possible now... The Helix can behave exactly the same way it did before snapshots as it does with snapshots if you wanted it to. It just means you wouldn't use snapshots...

 

For now, is there anyway you could have the preset load with a different snapshot? I think it's hard to account for every possible use scenario.

[guix]

I get what you're saying, but it's still possible now... The Helix can behave exactly the same way it did before snapshots as it does with snapshots if you wanted it to. It just means you wouldn't use snapshots...

 

For now, is there anyway you could have the preset load with a different snapshot? I think it's hard to account for every possible use scenario.

I know you can simulate if you don't use snapshots but i need to use them in this case

Its standard industry software development stuff... all functionality from previous version should be included... think about taking your car to repair to find out you got 100HP more but cannot use 5th gear .... because... reasons.... :- )

[phil_m]

I know you can simulate if you don't use snapshots but i need to use them in this case

Its standard industry software development stuff... all functionality from previous version should be included... think about taking your car to repair to find out you got 100HP more but cannot use 5th gear .... because... reasons.... :- )

 

It's hardly the same thing... You didn't lose any functionality with snapshots and the Command Center. You gained a ton more. It's just that you're wanting the new features to behave in a way that they currently don't. I'm sorry to be dogmatic about it, but I just don't understand why you're portraying it as if Line 6 removed features - they clearly didn't. If you had instant commands assigned to a preset before snapshots, those instant commands still work in the same way after the 2.0 update. It's just that they live in Snapshot 1. But they would still be shot out upon preset changes.

[guix]

It's hardly the same thing... You didn't lose any functionality with snapshots and the Command Center. You gained a ton more. It's just that you're wanting the new features to behave in a way that they currently don't. I'm sorry to be dogmatic about it, but I just don't understand why you're portraying it as if Line 6 removed features - they clearly didn't. If you had instant commands assigned to a preset before snapshots, those instant commands still work in the same way after the 2.0 update. It's just that they live in Snapshot 1. But they would still be shot out upon preset changes.

I am sure not intentionally but they did. Again, before the snapshots the instant commands were recalled when the preset was set only once, now they don't, they are sent as many times as snapshots change within a preset

Yes, from your point of view now as the first snapshot triggers instant commands on preset change you might think its the same, but it is not. if you have a preset for one song you may want to trigger some commands before the song starts and not need to set anything else later. the probelm is again as the snapshots retrigger the commands , this is causes problems.

In the software industry its called backward compatibility testing. Its quite simple and logic.

 

only creating a page with the instant commands at preset level should be super-simple, as switches command do make sense at snapshot level

 

Line 6 : Woudl it be possible to have a preset level instant commands?

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Preset-level-command-centre/892043-23508?submitted=1

[HonestOpinion]

I think the OP has a point here although I would not characterize the addition of snapshots as a "step back" without emphasizing the fact that snapshots was also about 50 steps forward. Although the amount of new functionality and the ability to switch without lag added by snapshots was an astounding boon to the Helix, it did lose the ability to do "instant" switches solely at the preset level. That ability should probably be restored.  I voted for his idea and think it is a good one.

[phil_m]

I think the OP has a point here although I would not characterize the addition of snapshots as a "step back" without emphasizing the fact that snapshots was also about 50 steps forward. Although the amount of new functionality and the ability to switch without lag added by snapshots was an astounding boon to the Helix, it did lose the ability to do "instant" switches solely at the preset level. That ability should probably be restored. I voted for his idea and think it is a good one.

I understand the point, but I don't see how realistically you can say anything was lost. If you had preset level instant commands before the update, they still remain. The preset would behave exactly the same after the update as it did before the update. It's just that with snapshots, you can send Instant Commands while in a preset, something that didn't exist before.

 

I'm not against the idea of splitting them up. I just don't agree with the reasoning being put forth. I'm not sure how anyone can say anything was removed when users who aren't using snapshots would see the exact same behavior before and after the update.

[guix]

Just to be clear, I don't see the addition of snapshots as a step back... quite the contrary obviously.. it is actually because i use them that I ask.

My instant commands were preset level : once a song if I use one preset a song. Now they are not.... and I definitely want to use snapshots! :- )

 

with lots of love:

The OP.

[amsdenj]

@guix, I think you make a good point. Sending things on patch change should be limited to patch changes, not changes within a patch. These should be treated as different user actions. The purposes for patch change and for snapshot change within a patch are quite different and one might expect to the integration with other components to be quite different too.

[rzumwalt]

First, this can't be construed as a backward compatibility failure. If you continue to use the Helix the same as you did before the snapshots, it has the same effect on MIDI. There is now a new feature, and you are free to use it if it works for you. I don't play bass, and it would screw up my tone if I inserted one of the new bass amp models into my presets. The new feature doesn't work for me, but that doesn't mean it isn't backward compatible. Bass amps just weren't meant for guitar. I know it's a bit different given how much an improvement snapshots are, but it isn't accurate to say that, since this new optional feature doesn't perform in a particular way, it isn't backward compatible.

Second, isn't this how snapshots actually work? I recall a firmware note saying that Helix doesn't send a MIDI message between snapshots if the new snapshot has the same MIDI message, and I've in fact found this to be true, for all of my purposes, at least. Does MIDI clock work differently?

Finally, I suppose they could do this, and, if so, it wouldn't be a bad idea. Just don't remove the current ability to send MIDI signals between snapshots when we want to.

[HonestOpinion]

I appreciate the other posters' point here regarding whether or not this can be construed or defined as a "backward compatibility" issue. I just think it would be a shame to see the OP's point get obscured by whether or not that particular phrase applies in this case.

Just speaking in general terms, when cool new features like snapshots get added, it is IMHO ideal when a valued feature that existed prior to the new feature is still available, and where applicable, can still be used with the new feature. The "where applicable" is the big caveat. Sometimes an evolutionary feature like "snapshots" is going to change the playing field and an old feature may be replaced with something better, or not coexist or make sense with the new paradigm. That does not appear to be the case here though. It would seem that instant commands could be allowed to be sent either on preset change, snapshot change, or both, such that a user can take advantage of the new snapshot functionality and still have the ability to send a command only on preset change.

 

So, whether or not this is a "backward compatibility" issue or not I think the main point is that this user would prefer not to have to forego using a new feature as phenomenal as snapshots just to be able to retain a feature from a previous firmware version (preset only instant switches). In this case, it seems that snapshots and preset-only instant changes could coexist if the firmware was modified/enhanced. They don't appear to be mutually exclusive features, at least on the face of things.

 

Anyway, good luck to the OP getting this feature although I admit there are lots of other things I would prefer to see get worked on first. This seems like a reasonable request and more importantly points to a policy we probably all support which is that whenever feasible, users be able to use a feature from both an old and newer version of the firmware simultaneously when they are not incompatible with each other. In fairness to the developers, particularly when the new firmware provides substantial benefits, I can see in some cases where too much additional coding is required and there is not a large enough benefit to enough users to justify the maintenance or enhancement of certain features from prior firmware versions. Maintenance or enhancement that would allow them to be used concurrently with newer features. Hopefully situations requiring those kinds of compromises are rare.

[rzumwalt]

I appreciate the other posters' point here regarding whether or not this can be construed or defined as a "backward compatibility" issue. I just think it would be a shame to see the OP's point get obscured by whether or not that particular phrase applies in this case.

 

Conceded. OP's point is good, regardless of whether "backwards compatibility" is the right frame of reference.

 

Just speaking in general terms, when cool new features like snapshots get added, it is IMHO ideal when a valued feature that existed prior to the new feature is still available, and where applicable, can still be used with the new feature. The "where applicable" is the big caveat. Sometimes an evolutionary feature like "snapshots" is going to change the playing field and an old feature may be replaced with something better, or not coexist or make sense with the new paradigm. That does not appear to be the case here though. It would seem that instant commands could be allowed to be sent either on preset change, snapshot change, or both, such that a user can take advantage of the new snapshot functionality and still have the ability to send a command only on preset change. 

 

I don't disagree, but do want to comment here out of a purely selfish fear of losing a capability that I love if changes were to be made. It sounds like some view preset selection as the MIDI event, and everything within the preset as working within that MIDI environment, so to speak. And so they feel that an original feature of presets was that they provided stable MIDI environments (there must be a better word for this). I've always thought about this more like selecting the preset and selecting Snapshot 1 were the same thing, so I feel that original present feature set was it's opportunity to send MIDI. So I don't see any feature as being lost, but I can understand how others would. It's a little bit like "what's the sound of one hand clapping?"   

 

Solution Idea

I may have just thought of a solution to OP's issue. It depends on whether you can turn a MIDI send command on in one snapshot, but all the way off in another snapshot within the same preset. If so, set snapshot 1 how you normally would, with MIDI and everything. Make an identical copy of snapshot 1 in Snapshot 2 but turn off the MIDI send commands, make snapshots 3-8 all without MIDI send commands. You would enter the preset at Snapshot 1 and be able to return to the identical settings in Snapshot 2 without sending a MIDI command. Or, if you set up like I do with four stomps and four snapshots, save the preset so that it starts on Snapshot 5, and make your identical-except-for-MIDI snapshot at Snapshot 1. that way, you'll still have four different snapshots to select from the default view without initiating a MIDI command. I don't know whether it would work, but I'd be interested to find out.

[HonestOpinion]

 

Solution Idea

I may have just thought of a solution to OP's issue. It depends on whether you can turn a MIDI send command on in one snapshot, but all the way off in another snapshot within the same preset. If so, set snapshot 1 how you normally would, with MIDI and everything. Make an identical copy of snapshot 1 in Snapshot 2 but turn off the MIDI send commands, make snapshots 3-8 all without MIDI send commands. You would enter the preset at Snapshot 1 and be able to return to the identical settings in Snapshot 2 without sending a MIDI command. Or, if you set up like I do with four stomps and four snapshots, save the preset so that it starts on Snapshot 5, and make your identical-except-for-MIDI snapshot at Snapshot 1. that way, you'll still have four different snapshots to select from the default view without initiating a MIDI command. I don't know whether it would work, but I'd be interested to find out.

 

A simpler solution might be giving the user the options/modes on an instant command to set "Preset", "Snapshot", or "Both/All". This way you could specifically indicate when the instant command should be sent.

[rzumwalt]

A simpler solution might be giving the user the options/modes on an instant command to set "Preset", "Snapshot", or "Both/All". This way you could specifically indicate when the instant command should be sent.

Of course. I meant specifically for OP's immediate problem.

[HonestOpinion]

Of course. I meant specifically for OP's immediate problem.

 

Ah, I get it! Workarounds that work right now are a beautiful thing.

[rzumwalt]

Ah, I get it! Workarounds that work right now are a beautiful thing.

Yeah. As I always say, why fix something when you can make it more complicated instead?

Since I'm utterly ignorant on how MIDI clock works, I'm wondering if that actually is a solution. Has anybody who uses MIDI clock tried it?

[HonestOpinion]

Yeah. As I always say, why fix something when you can make it more complicated instead?

...

Chuckle..  :)

 

 

Yeah. As I always say, why fix something when you can make it more complicated instead?

Since I'm utterly ignorant on how MIDI clock works, I'm wondering if that actually is a solution. Has anybody who uses MIDI clock tried it?

                            

 

I am no MIDI expert either and although I suppose MIDI clock could play into this depending on what the user is triggering or having triggered via MIDI, I don't think MIDI clock is his focus. As discussed, it appears he is hoping for a firmware revision that provides an option to trigger a MIDI, CV, or External amp command at the Preset, Snapshot, or both, level via 'instant' commands

[stevejk86]

@guix Stumbled across this old post last night whilst trying to achieve the same thing - preset level instant commands. Did you ever solve it?

Found the solution to this for any future readers! Turn off Duplicate PC Send (this affects both CC and PC messages, despite the name) in global settings. Then add the same instant command MIDI to all snapshots in a preset. When switching back to a previous snapshot the MIDI CC wont be sent again (as long as its the exact same MIDI CC). Effectively this emulates assigning a MIDI command to the preset and not snapshots.

This is using Helix firmware 3.1

 

Hope it helps someone!