Finally settled on (just!) four amps for cover band application

[marmatkat]

Hi there. I've had my Helix LT for four months now, and have played out with it twice in a new cover band I recently joined. I've been climbing the Helix learning curve from a background of a guitar going straight into a tube combo with no pedals, so it's been a good challenge. After sticking with factory presets and experimenting, I recently made four presets that I think will cover 95% percent of our set list. My needs are pretty straightforward: clean, just-breaking-up, and two distorted tones, with just a few effects. I thought I'd share this just for FYI and comments.

 

I'm running my LT into a QSC K10 on a stand. My guitar is a '93 Hamer Special with (noisy!) Loller P90s. I play rhythm and sing. All presets have the expression pedal controlling the output block's gain from 0dB to +7dB for any boost I might need (and to avoid reaching down to turn the volume during a song), and the input block's noise gate is on for all presets. Each preset has a final parametric EQ that cuts some of the the ~150Hz (IIRC) boominess of the K10. I also use cab low and high cuts. I use whatever cab and mic comes with the Amp+Cab defaults. I run the K10 at 100% and have the Helix output ~12 o'clock (we are not a loud band). I used a smart phone dB app to get the output volumes about the same, using either the master gain or the output block if master was tapped out. (I generally like masters at 10.) I have the foot switches set to four snapshots above and four stomps below. I have the global EQ disabled, taking the advise of others here to preserve it for adapting for room acoustics.

1. US Double Vib: For rich clean tones. Chorus and tremolo stomps. No snapshots.
2. US Deluxe Vib: Gives me a nice just-breaking up sound. Chorus and delay. Three snapshots for different channel gains.
3. Who Watt 100: Delicious distortion. Phaser. No snapshots.
4. Matchstick Ch2: ""

I don't use any distortion pedals. I guess I prefer the "natural" distortion of the amps, rather than the pedals, which all sound kinda' harsh to me. Again, this is probably a bias from my non-pedal history. I suppose one could use the same amp as a pedal platform and just swap out different distortion pedals to get your sounds. Also, I don't have any fancy routing - no splitting into multiple amps or cabs. That seems advanced to me, but I can see the appeal.

 

It was really hard to pick a small number of amps. The Paradox of Choice, I suppose. I just went through all models, ruling out those that were high gain or that didn't knock me out. Then I forced myself to pick four (fits in one bank). Hopefully this setup will work well for the time being. I'm excited to try this out at a gig this Saturday. Thanks! --matt

[DunedinDragon]

That's a pretty flexible set of amps for the most part, but depending on what type of genres you're covering might have some holes.  One that jumps out at me immediately is the Vox sound which is so prominent particularly in a lot of british sounds like the Beatles or Queen.  You might have another hole if you're doing clean blues like BB King or jazz type sounds similar to Steely Dan which is the domain of Jazz Rivet 120.

 

Of course this is all dependent on how authentic you want your sound to be.  I'm somewhat OCD on such things so I use a pretty wide range of amps to emulate the sounds of the artists.  But YMMV.

[jaybee77]

All Sounds good. Love the matchstick amp

I Use the helix volume at 100% for unity gain and turn down the speakers volume. Use the channel volume in the amp setting or the output block volume to keep the signal level at unity gain.

Actually I measure the signal throughout each block I add. First i measure guitar signal through helix with no blocks on at all, main volume dial at 100% and the guitar vol and tone at max using the middle pick up setting. Then I note the level. As I add each block I adjust the level of the block to match the level I noted from just playing the guitar through the helix. Keep the signal to that level through all the blocks all the way to the output. Having the volume dial at 100% is unity gain and best low signal noise. With regards to distortion drive pedals before the amp block I measure and adjust the output of the signal at the amp block rather than keeping those pedals at unity before the amp block. This is because you want drive pedals to push the front of the amp... so not always looking to achieve unity gain in front of an amp model but be careful not to push drive the front of amps into digital clipping.

This method keeps the signal noise down low and maintains unity gain and sounds pure and great and gives a good sense of where you are at whilst creating and tweaking a patch.

Note: if you creating a patch where it's a clean tone and guitar volume kept around 3-5 for most of the playing then I measure my reference level with the guitar at 5 with no blocks turned on.. and then as I create that patch keep all the blocks at the unity gain from the guitar referenced at 3-5.

Otherwise I always use the guitar maxed out to set up and measure the unity gain... then once all set up I can roll off the guitar volume to taste. If I have set up a patch using guitar vol maxed to create unity gain and then find I have a long passage with the guitar vol lowered i sometimes put a clean boost block at the end of the chain and turn it on when I lower the guitar vol to raise that passage to unity gain at the lower guitar vol setting.. . Then when I step the guitar vol back up I switch the boost off.

I like your idea of having expression pedal set up at end of chain For a boost. There is always room to push just above unity gain or to raise the levels when guitar vol lowered.

For all of this you need a stereo level meter attached to helix.

I use my zoom h4n in volume metering mode attached to 2 sends placed at the end of the signal chain right b4 the output block.

I wish line 6 could incorporate a level meter into the helix so that I don't have to use up 2 sends for metering purposes. It is desperately needed and on idea scale it has 1076 votes ... and yet it still hasn't appeared... is this not possible or will it appear in the future? I hope so

Enjoy

[DunedinDragon]

Just curious, what does unity gain mean to you?

 

Technically the term unity gain is what is used to specify that nothing is being taken away from the signal and nothing is being added to the signal.  Therefore the signal is in it's unencumbered state, but it only applies to signal strength.  For example, when you look at a mixing board the gain knob at the 12 o'clock position is marked with a 'u' to designate unity.  Even more telling are the faders which specify a zero (0) position below which are negative numbers and above which are positive numbers which specify positive or negative sDb units.  So the signal coming from the Helix is just a signal delivered at a certain signal level.  What determines unity is at the mixing board and how that signal (regardless of it's strength) will be handled on the pre-amp side by either adding to the signal or taking away from the signal.  Any line coming into the board will be treated exactly the same way whether it be a vocal mic or a amp mic even though the signals from different devices vary greatly in their signal strength.  This concept has been applied to some powered speakers as well in that the midpoint of the dial is considered unity and the signal will either be boosted or subtracted before sending it to the amp.

 

I just can't get my head around what people mean when they talk about unity from a device that PROVIDES a signal.  Technically it should only apply to a device receiving a signal and whether the preamp should boost or reduce the signal.

[marmatkat]

Guess which two amps were #5 and #6, which I decided to exclude for now to keep it down to four? :)

 

That's a pretty flexible set of amps for the most part, but depending on what type of genres you're covering might have some holes.  One that jumps out at me immediately is the Vox sound which is so prominent particularly in a lot of british sounds like the Beatles or Queen.  You might have another hole if you're doing clean blues like BB King or jazz type sounds similar to Steely Dan which is the domain of Jazz Rivet 120.

 

Of course this is all dependent on how authentic you want your sound to be.  I'm somewhat OCD on such things so I use a pretty wide range of amps to emulate the sounds of the artists.  But YMMV.

[marmatkat]

Wow - thanks for the detail. Question: If your Helix volume is at 100%, then how do you up the volume without going over to your speaker? Isn't that more inconvenient than turning up the Helix?

 

All Sounds good. Love the matchstick amp

I Use the helix volume at 100% for unity gain and turn down the speakers volume. Use the channel volume in the amp setting or the output block volume to keep the signal level at unity gain.
...

[cruisinon2]

Wow - thanks for the detail. Question: If your Helix volume is at 100%, then how do you up the volume without going over to your speaker? Isn't that more inconvenient than turning up the Helix?

One man's "convenient" is another's insufferable torture...in the end, volume is volume. You've either got headroom somewhere, or you don't.

[DunedinDragon]

One man's "convenient" is another's insufferable torture...in the end, volume is volume. You've either got headroom somewhere, or you don't.

 

EXACTLY!!  That's the reason I asked about what the HECK they mean by unity?  I know I keep my Helix master volume set at 11 o'clock with the volume on my DXR12 at 12 o'clock or what they reference as unity.  With those two settings I design all of my patches so that the line signal going into the mixing board comes in at around -4 sDBu.  That gives the sound man more than enough room to bring the level to unity or wherever he wants it for the mix without any risk of overdriving the signal and it provides me with more than enough volume on stage (around 100 db measured by a sound meter).  If necessary I can make adjustments right on the front of the Helix but I rarely ever have to other than minor tweeks during sound checks.  From what I gather on these forums that tends to be fairly consistent with what a lot of people do.

 

I think this whole thing started when Line 6 made the statement about having your master volume maxxed out because that produced the best signal-to-noise ratio.  But this isn't 1970, this is 2017 and those sort of noise floor issues are hardly relevant in the digital age.  Maybe if you're in a perfect acoustical setting you might hear some slight difference, but I don't know of anyone that plays or records in that kind of situation.  But I do know a LOT of people that, if they needed to adjust volumes on their FRFR speaker would be highly upset at how painful it is during sound checks or performance to have to adjust it on the back of a FRFR monitor.  It's simply not practical, nor is it necessary from what I can see.

[jaybee77]

i aint no master .. im learning here... and im all ears to your thoughts and learning from other people explorations...

each has their own method and own understanding of unity and how to set up signal levels to get best quality of signal throughout from guitar to what comes out of the speaker. its whatever works for you as each persons set up and needs is different.. enjoy

im all ears to hear how you all set up your equipment? thats just how i have mine set up and it works beautifully for me...  why is everyone asking for a meter.. is it to maintain a good signal level throughout that doesnt push too high into clipping or drop volume too low so as to unnecessary lose signal level or introduce unnecessary noise by raising the signal too high at certain points in the chain?

[robbieb61]

Isn't it great that you can say "only" 4? Lol!

[marmatkat]

im all ears to hear how you all set up your equipment? thats just how i have mine set up and it works beautifully for me...  why is everyone asking for a meter.. is it to maintain a good signal level throughout that doesnt push too high into clipping or drop volume too low so as to unnecessary lose signal level or introduce unnecessary noise by raising the signal too high at certain points in the chain?

 

FYI I started with simply adjusting output volumes by ear, then checked the smart phone db app. I was pretty close, though I found the Matchless pretty hot IIRC.

 

 

Isn't it great that you can say "only" 4? Lol!

 

Amazing number of models. I have played a little with individual ones, and I suspect one could dive pretty deep into each. (Has anyone done this with particular models? If the modeling is component-based as they say, then some (most?) models must have complex interactions between controls.)

[mdmayfield]

I think this whole thing started when Line 6 made the statement about having your master volume maxxed out because that produced the best signal-to-noise ratio.  But this isn't 1970, this is 2017 and those sort of noise floor issues are hardly relevant in the digital age.

 

 

Yes, x 100. So many people underestimate just how insanely much usable dynamic range is available with modern equipment.

 

I recorded a rehearsal in multitrack once where something went wrong with the kick drum channel, which ended up recording peaking at like -48dBFS. I figured it would be unusable noisy trash, but when mixing I checked the channel and boosted it by the necessary 40+ dB, and it was just fine - perfectly acceptable (very low) levels of noise.

 

That lesson has really stuck with me, since it means that clipping ALWAYS sounds like total trash IMMEDIATELY... but low levels (when recording 24-bit on clean equipment) are EXTREMELY forgiving.

 

So, in live sound, while -48dBFS peaks are much lower than you'd ever want, it goes to show that there's no need to bend over backwards trying to get "as hot an input as possible without clipping". In fact it's often self-defeating.

[DunedinDragon]

i aint no master .. im learning here... and im all ears to your thoughts and learning from other people explorations...

each has their own method and own understanding of unity and how to set up signal levels to get best quality of signal throughout from guitar to what comes out of the speaker. its whatever works for you as each persons set up and needs is different.. enjoy

im all ears to hear how you all set up your equipment? thats just how i have mine set up and it works beautifully for me...  why is everyone asking for a meter.. is it to maintain a good signal level throughout that doesnt push too high into clipping or drop volume too low so as to unnecessary lose signal level or introduce unnecessary noise by raising the signal too high at certain points in the chain?

 

A meter would aid in normalizing the volume levels between patches.  Right now you can do it by ear, but the ears can be deceived so having a meter that gives you a reading on the different patches will let you dial in the volumes a bit more consistently.  Obviously it would help in making sure you're not sending too hot a signal out, but as I understand it that's pretty hard to do from the Helix.

 

Where that really aids things is in being able to send a consistent signal level to the board.  For example, because I have a small mixer I can plug into at home that provides me with a signal meter, I can make sure all of my patches have a consistent signal level.  Therefore when I gain stage during sound checks I only need to have the sound man dial in my channel's gain level from any one of my patches, because all of the other patches will be the same signal level.  That saves a lot of time.

[HonestOpinion]

This is a fascinating discussion to me. For about the last year and a half I have been using the Helix with the large Volume knob set to Multi so that it controlled both my stage monitor(1/4) and FOH (XLR) volumes. Of course this meant that every time I needed to increase or decrease my volume on stage I was also impacting the FOH volume. Recently, partly in response to the comments that DunedinDragon referred to, made by Line6 and others, regarding maxing out the Volume knob for best sound, I changed my settings for the Volume knob to control only my 1/4 output to my stage monitor.

 

I believe the L6 staff have commented that not having the Volume knob control an output is the same as setting it to max. If that is so then the FOH levels for all presets are now at what would be the equivalent of having the Volume knob turned all the way up as it no longer controls my XLR outs to the FOH. This allows me to control my stage and FOH volumes separately which was my primary objective. I also thought an ancillary benefit would be best the sound possible due to having the Helix volume set to "11" at all times. The problem is of course that the guitar's FOH level now has to be controlled from the mixer. Not quite so convenient on nights when the band is mixing itself from the stage. This new configuration also meant I had to level up my presets fairly carefully in order not to end up sending a signal that was either too low or too hot to the FOH. I use my volume pedal now for most presets if I need to adjust the level to the FOH and I use the Volume knob to get the right level for the stage monitor. 

 

I have not been using the Helix configured this way for very long and I am not sure yet how I feel about it, particularly if there is no tangible improvement in tone or S/N ratio rendered by having the Volume all the way up. Additionally, if there is a significant difference, I have now set things up such that my stage tone may be different from my FOH tone.  I use an FRFR on stage to ensure that I am getting as close as possible to an accurate representation on stage of what is appearing at the FOH.  So perhaps setting the Volume knob to only control my stage monitors is not the best solution for me. Additionally, I now only have control of the FOH volume solely from the mixer or from my expression pedal which I may be using for other purposes depending on which preset I am using.

 

I still keep going back to wanting two physical knobs on the Helix that are "always available" so that I can assign one to my 1/4 output and the other to my XLR outputs. The next version of the Helix would in my opinion provide a much improved level of control if two Volume knobs were to be made available for assignation to different outputs.

 

I am curious if anyone has noticed a significant improvement in their tone in the FOH by changing the setting on the Volume knob to NOT controlling it such that the FOH always gets the full Helix level output?

[DunedinDragon]

This is a fascinating discussion to me. For about the last year and a half I have been using the Helix with the large Volume knob set to Multi so that it controlled both my stage monitor(1/4) and FOH (XLR) volumes. Of course this meant that every time I needed to increase or decrease my volume on stage I was also impacting the FOH volume. Recently, partly in response to the comments that DunedinDragon referred to, made by Line6 and others, regarding maxing out the Volume knob for best sound, I changed my settings for the Volume knob to control only my 1/4 output to my stage monitor.

 

I believe the L6 staff have commented that not having the Volume knob control an output is the same as setting it to max. If that is so then the FOH levels for all presets are now at what would be the equivalent of having the Volume knob turned all the way up as it no longer controls my XLR outs to the FOH. This allows me to control my stage and FOH volumes separately which was my primary objective. I also thought an ancillary benefit would be best the sound possible due to having the Helix volume set to "11" at all times. The problem is of course that the guitar's FOH level now has to be controlled from the mixer. Not quite so convenient on nights when the band is mixing itself from the stage. This new configuration also meant I had to level up my presets fairly carefully in order not to end up sending a signal that was either too low or too hot to the FOH. I use my volume pedal now for most presets if I need to adjust the level to the FOH and I use the Volume knob to get the right level for the stage monitor. 

 

I have not been using the Helix configured this way for very long and I am not sure yet how I feel about it, particularly if there is no tangible improvement in tone or S/N ratio rendered by having the Volume all the way up. Additionally, if there is a significant difference, I have now set things up such that my stage tone may be different from my FOH tone.  I use an FRFR on stage to ensure that I am getting as close as possible to an accurate representation on stage of what is appearing at the FOH.  So perhaps setting the Volume knob to only control my stage monitors is not the best solution for me. Additionally, I now only have control of the FOH volume solely from the mixer or from my expression pedal which I may be using for other purposes depending on which preset I am using.

 

I still keep going back to wanting two physical knobs on the Helix that are "always available" so that I can assign one to my 1/4 output and the other to my XLR outputs. The next version of the Helix would in my opinion provide a much improved level of control if two Volume knobs were to be made available for assignation to different outputs.

 

I am curious if anyone has noticed a significant improvement in their tone in the FOH by changing the setting on the Volume knob to NOT controlling it such that the FOH always gets the full Helix level output?

 

This is one of those things I've been curious about myself ever since they introduced the ability to set your XLR output separate from the master volume knob.  I did experiment with it once when we had a bit of extra time during a sound check.  The sound man and I both agreed we couldn't hear any difference at all so I just went back to doing things as I normally do rather than take a chance on a setup I wasn't completely confident in for a live performance.

 

I think if I were dealing with a situation like yours where you often need to adjust the master volume I'd see the benefit.  But we've gotten our setups down to the point that we really don't have to adjust any volumes on stage once we dial everything in during sound check, so it's not a pressing issue for us.  I still may consider it on a case by case basis when we find ourselves working on a stage or venue that presents some challenges for getting our stage sound balanced and I might have to make some on-the-fly adjustments.  It wouldn't be for S/N ratio, just the convenience of knowing the sound man will have a consistent signal to work with.