Preset or snapshot switching

[devinsmithpzm]

Hi at this stage ive been reading and learning about preset switching and using snapshots and what the difference is

 

Well first off ive bought my helix lt in South Africa the first 6 only arrived 2 weeks ago so i picked one up at a whopping R16500.

 

So my first worry when i started playing around with it was that the preset switching had audio gap and no reverb or delay bleed or spil over sorry if im not using correct terminology

 

So with some reading i realized that the switching of presets involved alot of "thinking work " for the helix hence the gap etc

 

So then I discovered snapshots and my excitement was restored but short lived as I discovered that i can barely load two or more amps reverbs etc because im maxing out the dsp

 

So with all of that said my idee was to use the helix as a tool to seemlessly change between presets or snapshots using various amps effects etc but i find that im limited coz on the one hand preset switching doesn't work coz of the noticeable audio gap and on the other hand snapshots are very limiting coz of the dsp

 

Ive got instrumental songs that i want to play along with using multiple amps and effects all for one song

 

So ive seen people writing about how you can get creative with routings and all that tipe of thing but im just a bit let down by the fact that it's quite pricey and and not that easy as I thought

 

All i want is to have 3 or 4 different presets or snapshots where there's multiple amps involed and i want to move back and forth between them without audio gaps etc or not being able to select more than 2 amps per preset

 

And im not using the editor when setting up sound which ive heard also takes up dsp

 

Look i think its a great unit with exceptional sound but its got its limits and I accept that but wanting to use multiple presets or snapshots within a song isn't asking alot

 

Any idees or suggestions or maybe a globel setting to optimize dsp i dont know about?

[pbatts]

How many amps do you want to use?

[DunedinDragon]

The truth is, you're going to find similar limits on any of the higher end modeling units based on the fact that there's a functional limit to how much processing can be done per DSP chip.  When you change presets you start over from scratch in that everything needs to get re-connected from the ground up which causes the gap.  A snapshot is nothing more than just a single preset with some additional functionality to help decide what components within that preset are active and what their settings are at any given point in time.  In the end it's still a single preset with the same computational limits of how much processing the DSP can handle.

 

What saves most people is that you have two dedicated DSP chips each one allocated to a separate signal path.  This allows you to allocate the blocks specifically to each of the DSP chips.  By using some creative routing it's relatively easy to share effects between different amps and just change their settings of those effects within the snapshot.  It's also necessary to become familiar with the general amount of DSP used by different blocks.

 

As I said you'll find the same limitations on all of the higher end modeling devices because by their very definition they use more computational capability to achieve the level of modeling being done.  The practical limit on all of these type of modelers tends to be 2 DSP chips before you begin to run into latency issues.  The problem is, in this world nothing comes for free.  And the higher quality you want comes with a practical computational limit.  It can be worked around as many people have done, but you have to put in the energy and time to make it work for you.

[jbuhajla]

How many different amps, cabinet/IRs, effects would you ideally want in a single preset?

[DBCrocky]

The truth is, you're going to find similar limits on any of the higher end modeling units based on the fact that there's a functional limit to how much processing can be done per DSP chip. 

 

This just isn't true.  There are ways to achieve gap-less preset switching and some units out there have achieved that.  The Boss GT-PRO, which is about 10 years old had them and I hear the new Headrush pedal has them along with delay spillover between presets.  At least you didn't get one of the Line6 Firehawk FX pedals, that waste of money had gap-full presets with no way to get over them, along with the added fun the choice between a terrible Bluetooth programming interface or a terrible button and one line display programming interface.

 

You can, of course, with some more in depth programming, change parameters on an amp block like drive, tone, volume with snapshots and controllers to coax several different sounds out of an amp block.  If, like me, you have a few MIDI controller preamps and a nice real live power amp and cabs, you can get several different sounds within a preset by changing preamp sounds with MIDI commands or by changing preamps.  These are, however, work-arounds, and I play the game because I want extra features that the Variax/Helix combination gives me.

 

But if you want to create a set of five to twenty carefully built presets, and build songs/banks that allow you to switch between those presets without gaps, the Helix might not be the product for you.

[phil_m]

This just isn't true.  There are ways to achieve gap-less preset switching and some units out there have achieved that.  The Boss GT-PRO, which is about 10 years old had them and I hear the new Headrush pedal has them along with delay spillover between presets.  At least you didn't get one of the Line6 Firehawk FX pedals, that waste of money had gap-full presets with no way to get over them, along with the added fun the choice between a terrible Bluetooth programming interface or a terrible button and one line display programming interface.

 

The GT-Pro uses a semi-fixed signal chain and limits the number of instances of effects you can use.. The Headrush only allows you to use 11 processing blocks total in a preset... So, yes, these devices allow gapless preset switching, but they do it by greatly limiting users' flexibility when it comes to creating complex presets and such.

[phil_m]

So then I discovered snapshots and my excitement was restored but short lived as I discovered that i can barely load two or more amps reverbs etc because im maxing out the dsp

 

 

If this is the case, I suspect that you aren't using both processors to their full capability. The way the Helix is set up is that the blocks on Path 1 (or Path 1A and 2B, to be exact) are using on processor, and the the blocks on Path 2 are using the other. So if you're using multiple amps, the best way to go about it is to put one amp model on Path 1 and the other on Path 2.

[devinsmithpzm]

So i think after going through two weeks of learning all about the helix and these types of units and how they work and what their limitations are the fact of the matter for me is that we all have something different in mind in terms of how we want to use the unit and what we want from the unit and you either like it or you dont

 

I personally am willing to keep the unit and use the snapshots function to try and squeeze all i can from one preset and i must say with a little thought you can get quite alot if there was no snapshot function like before firmware 2.0 would've gived it a mis

 

There's not alot i can complain about when it comes to the helix LT except that they could've just added the aux in I cant understand why they left that out the normal helix floor unit has it so should the LT

 

I would say people should decide before they get one what they want from the unit do you research on it and decide then especially if you're a nubie to all of this stuff

 

For me im sticking with it

[DBCrocky]

Most certainly, given similar hardware, having gapless presets would come at the tradeoff of less power/flexibility within a preset. 

[DunedinDragon]

Most certainly, given similar hardware, having gapless presets would come at the tradeoff of less power/flexibility within a preset. 

 

I believe that's why, in the original post you responded to I specifically said "higher end modelers".  I'm sure you could get by with little to no gap on a Spider V amp as well, but that's hardly an apples to apples comparison.  It would also come with less specific detail in the modeling of the individual blocks as well....such as a comparison between the HD500 modeling and the Helix modeling.

[jbuhajla]

Scott at the Helix Channel demonstrates having an amp and cab/IR on each signal path (1a, 2a) with a volume pedal sending the guitar signal pre-fuzz to path 2a. So everything on path 1 is processed by processor 1, and everything on path 2 is being processed on processor #2. 

 

[phil_m]

The other thing regarding gapless switching and presets is that there are actually two things going on there... Spillover only addresses part of the issue. With spillover, you'll have continuous audio over the change, but there's still the time needed to load the new preset. I've actually seen some comments on the Headrush that say even though there is spillover between presets, the time it takes to load the new preset is relatively long. So in instances where you need the sound from the new preset instantaneously, having spillover  won't actually solve that problem. Switching between snapshots gives you spillover and is instantaneous.

[DunedinDragon]

So i think after going through two weeks of learning all about the helix and these types of units and how they work and what their limitations are the fact of the matter for me is that we all have something different in mind in terms of how we want to use the unit and what we want from the unit and you either like it or you dont

 

I personally am willing to keep the unit and use the snapshots function to try and squeeze all i can from one preset and i must say with a little thought you can get quite alot if there was no snapshot function like before firmware 2.0 would've gived it a mis

 

There's not alot i can complain about when it comes to the helix LT except that they could've just added the aux in I cant understand why they left that out the normal helix floor unit has it so should the LT

 

I would say people should decide before they get one what they want from the unit do you research on it and decide then especially if you're a nubie to all of this stuff

 

For me im sticking with it

 

That's actually why I find no particular reason to use snapshots.  I've never felt limited by just using pre 2.0 assignments and such, even using multiple amps in some cases.

 

As far as things like the Aux In, or other inputs...everything adds to the price point, and if you're trying to hit a certain price point, certain things have to go.

[jbuhajla]

Here is a video from Ben Vesco showing setting up a very processing intensive preset with two amps. This one is very thorough. 

 

[DBCrocky]

I believe that's why, in the original post you responded to I specifically said "higher end modelers".  I'm sure you could get by with little to no gap on a Spider V amp as well, but that's hardly an apples to apples comparison.  It would also come with less specific detail in the modeling of the individual blocks as well....such as a comparison between the HD500 modeling and the Helix modeling.

 

That's not fair, I gave two examples, and the Spider V was not one of them. 

 

And no it would not mean less specific detail in the modelling.  The Helix has two DSP's, so one way to achieve gapless preset changes is by only allowing one per preset.  When you select a new preset, it is loaded into the unused DSP, and when loaded, you switch to it.  And so on. 

 

Your reduction in flexibility is that you lose the bottom half/second DSP of your preset.   You would have to program your preset only on the top part of the preset user interface now available.  There would be change in the blocks available or the quality of those blocks.

[DunedinDragon]

That's not fair, I gave two examples, and the Spider V was not one of them. 

 

And no it would not mean less specific detail in the modelling.  The Helix has two DSP's, so one way to achieve gapless preset changes is by only allowing one per preset.  When you select a new preset, it is loaded into the unused DSP, and when loaded, you switch to it.  And so on. 

 

Your reduction in flexibility is that you lose the bottom half/second DSP of your preset.   You would have to program your preset only on the top part of the preset user interface now available.  There would be change in the blocks available or the quality of those blocks.

 

I'm not sure that is functionally much different than how current snapshots work other than if that scheme were implemented as two completely separate presets it would limit the sharing of resources between the two signal chains as is currently allowed in snapshots.  Ultimately the presets would still have to be loaded simultaneously at the beginning when selected in the same way as snapshots in order to avoid the overhead of the loading process which is what causes the audio gap in the first place.

[jbuhajla]

The OP would like some tips on making use of the Helix as is for his specific purposes.  Philosophical discussion on gapless switching/spillover and hardware/firmware design may not help him out much. 

 

 

There are currently two ways of doing this within one preset:

 

1. Snapshots

2. Stomps and expression pedals programmed to control multiple parameters

[HonestOpinion]

Hi at this stage ive been reading and learning about preset switching and using snapshots and what the difference is

 

Well first off ive bought my helix lt in South Africa the first 6 only arrived 2 weeks ago so i picked one up at a whopping R16500.

 

So my first worry when i started playing around with it was that the preset switching had audio gap and no reverb or delay bleed or spil over sorry if im not using correct terminology

 

So with some reading i realized that the switching of presets involved alot of "thinking work " for the helix hence the gap etc

 

So then I discovered snapshots and my excitement was restored but short lived as I discovered that i can barely load two or more amps reverbs etc because im maxing out the dsp

 

So with all of that said my idee was to use the helix as a tool to seemlessly change between presets or snapshots using various amps effects etc but i find that im limited coz on the one hand preset switching doesn't work coz of the noticeable audio gap and on the other hand snapshots are very limiting coz of the dsp

 

Ive got instrumental songs that i want to play along with using multiple amps and effects all for one song

 

So ive seen people writing about how you can get creative with routings and all that tipe of thing but im just a bit let down by the fact that it's quite pricey and and not that easy as I thought

 

All i want is to have 3 or 4 different presets or snapshots where there's multiple amps involed and i want to move back and forth between them without audio gaps etc or not being able to select more than 2 amps per preset

 

And im not using the editor when setting up sound which ive heard also takes up dsp

 

Look i think its a great unit with exceptional sound but its got its limits and I accept that but wanting to use multiple presets or snapshots within a song isn't asking alot

 

Any idees or suggestions or maybe a globel setting to optimize dsp i dont know about?

 

I have many presets setup with three separate amp models (clean, crunch, lead) and multiple effects. They have gapless switching (snapshots) and spillover. For me the secret sauce was snapshots combined with a "Super Serial x2" routing scheme. You can find this in the Templates bank at '01D'. 

 

The snapshots part is obvious as this is how you get gapless switching and spillover on the Helix. Using the "Super Serial x2" routing scheme allows me to allocate both DSP chips to one long continuous path. I route all of my amp blocks through usually a single cab or IR. Make sure you select the amp only rather than amp+cab blocks when you choose your amp models to preserve DSP by routing all of them through a single cab/IR. The virtue of doing things this way is I can use the same effect and EQ blocks for all of my amp models using snapshots to turn the amp model I want on, as well as to change my amp, cab, and effect parameters and bypass state for each amp "channel".

 

This is a much more efficient use of DSP than for example having one amp on the top route and one on the bottom route - each requiring their own cab, as well as likely duplicate effects and EQ blocks required for each route. You will have to figure out where to place some of your blocks such that you don't max out the DSP on the top or the bottom route. Even though the route is continuous(serial) the two DSP chips are not "summed" and you still have to allocate your blocks to the top and bottom routes accordingly. This works great for me for the most part and easily allows not only two but three amps as well as multiple effects. I will admit there are some more exotic presets I would like to have designed that have pushed up against the DSP limits but I think you will be surprised at how much you can get into a preset using this method.

 

Note: Some amp models use substantially more DSP than others and can impact the total number or type of effects you can add to the signal chain.

[HonestOpinion]

...

And im not using the editor when setting up sound which ive heard also takes up dsp

...

 

I have never heard before that the Editor takes up DSP. I suppose it could but I have never measured how much I can put in a preset with the Editor versus without it. My sense is that even if this was true, and I would definitely need to test this or get a confirmation from Line6, the difference would be negligible. Although some users never touch the Editor I would highly encourage you to try it out as it is helpful and powerful tool for designing presets, managing library functions like moving presets around, easily naming snapshots presets and banks with a full keyboard, assigning parameters to snapshots, etc.. Not to speak of the fact that it makes envisioning certain layouts and operations easier and is absolutely critical for backing up your presets. Something you will want to do on a regular basis.