Helix, MIDI and SysEx

[flannmann]

I have been using touchOSC to make a controller for the Helix using MIDI over USB. Getting the app to control a parameter has been very straightforward - on the Helix press in the knob for a parameter, select the parameter to be controlled, press Learn Controller and then activate the desired controller in the app. I have been using Kinky Boost because it only has 3 parameters and it is straightforward to control them.

 

So transmitting MIDI from the controller works great. But I would really like to know the state of of a preset and its blocks. The only midi messages I currently see coming from the Helix are the ones generated when entering a preset. Are the Helix equivalents of the Fractal SysEx commands available?

 

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=MIDI_SysEx

[Digital_Igloo]

Helix doesn't really do SysEx. I totally get how it can be immensely powerful and flexible, considering any hardcore MIDI controller could be used to control anything, but:

• SysEx is beyond the vast, vast majority of Helix users. Even our most hardcore power users still want things to "just work" (I once worked at a SysEx-heavy MI company where no more than two or three of us in the entire building could talk SysEx)
• Given the myriad routing schemes and completely dynamic DSP allocation, SysEx implementation would have to be deep. This is the same reason we don't hardwire DAW automation lanes to Helix Native parameters; the user has to manually assign them
• Although it may sound like greed—and I assure you it's not—we REALLY want people to use Helix Control with Helix Rack, because of the seamless user experience. Adding comprehensive SysEx implementation would mean we'd be spending resources on a notably inferior user experience. Like Apple, Line 6 kinda frowns on that sort of thing
• Our own FBV protocol is much more consistent for us to support and test (and retest!) than SysEx
• SysEx is still at the mercy of MIDI data rates; FBV lets us easily accomplish communication at speeds that can sometimes choke MIDI

[flannmann]

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunate but I grok.

[mark_gamache]

I agree that SysEx is beyond most people's capabilities, but it's just a arbitrary binary format using Midi as a transport. I think you can pack anything in Sysex, right? Given that your FBV protocol is likely a binary format it could be stored in Sysex. I agree that the speed of midi might pose a problem especially when sending large patches (with like IR's). The benefits may be too little to spend any time implementing Sysex, but I think it's possible, or am I off base? Of course, in order to allow users to use the Sysex, the formats would have to be published. Again that's a lot of work and may open Line 6 to exposing proprietary information. Note: I've done some limited parsing of Sysex for a side project that never got going. 

[scrapperstoo]

On 12/19/2017 at 5:35 PM, Digital_Igloo said:

Helix doesn't really do SysEx. I totally get how it can be immensely powerful and flexible, considering any hardcore MIDI controller could be used to control anything, but:

• SysEx is beyond the vast, vast majority of Helix users. Even our most hardcore power users still want things to "just work" (I once worked at a SysEx-heavy MI company where no more than two or three of us in the entire building could talk SysEx)
• Given the myriad routing schemes and completely dynamic DSP allocation, SysEx implementation would have to be deep. This is the same reason we don't hardwire DAW automation lanes to Helix Native parameters; the user has to manually assign them
• Although it may sound like greed—and I assure you it's not—we REALLY want people to use Helix Control with Helix Rack, because of the seamless user experience. Adding comprehensive SysEx implementation would mean we'd be spending resources on a notably inferior user experience. Like Apple, Line 6 kinda frowns on that sort of thing
• Our own FBV protocol is much more consistent for us to support and test (and retest!) than SysEx
• SysEx is still at the mercy of MIDI data rates; FBV lets us easily accomplish communication at speeds that can sometimes choke MIDI

 

Is there any chance that any info on the FBV protocol will be made public at any point?

 

I'm trying to build a controller for HX Stomp that works in a similar manner to Helix Control, but is small enough to fit into my gig bag front pocket, as well as the Stomp itself and my amp head. I'm most of the way there with MIDI, but not being able to mirror: 

• Preset number & name
• Snapshot number
• FS text labels
• FS LED ring states

onto the controller screen means I still need the Stomp to be front of stage, and at risk from drink spillages / theft and whatnot.

 

Hopefully I'll be able to get the information I need by inspecting the traffic between HX Edit and HX Stomp and emulating that to some extent, but it'd be great if there was some official info (or even better - a published API!) as a headstart. I appreciate that you might change implementation details over time, so I'd potentially need to make changes to match whenever there's a firmware update... but I can always fall back to the current MIDI only implementation until I can catch up, so that's not *too* much of a concern for me.

 

Yours in naive optimism,

 

Stu

[ik2wxx]

Sigh....
(other brands support SysEx to access all controls).

[datacommando]

28 minutes ago, ik2wxx said:

Sigh....
(other brands support SysEx to access all controls).

Sigh...

The post by Digital Igloo, from 3 years ago, explains why not - and when it come to this sort of MIDI stuff - he is the man!

[Ed_Saxman]

Best post ever about this matter: