rosskoss Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 I'm curious as to how the sag control works - is it a common 'sag feeling' for a given sag setting (eg: value = 3 or 6) across all amp models or is it a modifier on top of the inherent sag characteristics specific to that amp? As an example - An amp like the Matchless DC30 model has some natural compression / sag when compared to a 'tight' amp like the ENGL model. So I would assume that with the sag set at '5' on both, that you would experience the innate sag characteristics of those models. But in many instances, I find that the default sag values across different amps are different from 5. Why would this be the case if the innate sag characteristics are already captured in base amp modeling (i.e. apart from the usage of the sag control). If the sag values are set as 3 or 7 or some other value as default in a particular amp model, does that mean that it is the sag control that is imparting the sag characteristics? Obviously this control works different on different amps (try Trainwreck model) but I'm not sure how / why the default is set a particular way to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brue58ski Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 This is a huge assumption but it is my understanding that Line 6 modeled the amps so that the knobs that Helix has that are on the amp, react the same as the original amp. That would indicate to me that your second guess, a modifier on top of the inherent sag characteristics specific to that amp , is correct. But I honestly have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themetallikid Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 I asked this question when I had my FAS Axe Ultra back in the day. On that unit all the 'sag' like controls defaulted to 5.0. Regardless of the model. Clearly there were different Sag feels between the amp types, so I concluded after getting 0 helpful responses to my question back then that the 5.0 Sag setting meant that at 5.0 the parameter is 'neutral' to how the amp was modeled. You could produced less/more sag by adjusting it, but 5.0 is equivalent to the tangible real world counterpart. Therefore turning the sag from 5.0 to 3.0/7.0 would produce different (but similar in effect) valued effects between amp models. I picture it just like the gain parameter. 5.0 on the gain knob is drastically different on the Princess (Princeton) amp vs. the Badonk Amp model. Can you get drastically different gained amps to sound similar, sure if you put one at 1.5 and one at 9.5 maybe...but like most things in the Helix.... use what sounds good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codamedia Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 I believe 5 is neutral to that amp model under ideal conditions (stable power, proper voltage, healthy caps, etc...) In these two extreme examples the amps respond as I expect... the sag is clearly different yet each default setting is still 5. In real life a Hiwatt does not sag.... same with the Helix model with a default of 5 In real life a Tweed Deluxe sags into oblivion.... so does the Helix model with a default of 5 There aren't many amps that have a different "default" setting than 5... but there are a few. Why is the default set differently on those few amps? I would only be speculating, and nobody needs that :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosskoss Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 40 minutes ago, codamedia said: I believe 5 is neutral to that amp model under ideal conditions (stable power, proper voltage, healthy caps, etc...) In these two extreme examples the amps respond as I expect... the sag is clearly different yet each default setting is still 5. In real life a Hiwatt does not sag.... same with the Helix model with a default of 5 In real life a Tweed Deluxe sags into oblivion.... so does the Helix model with a default of 5 There aren't many amps that have a different "default" setting than 5... but there are a few. Why is the default set differently on those few amps? I would only be speculating, and nobody needs that :) I'm just trying to understand why they're set different to the default 5 on some models. Does this mean that to get the 'truer' amp model response that I'd have to dial back to 5 on those models? (even if a greater or lower value might sound / feel better per the Line6 engineers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Because there's nothing worse than when everything sags the same...;) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themetallikid Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 no idea for sure.....my only guess is that there is a range for the Sag parameter in their algorhythm min/max type settings. most I would think they could recalibrate 5.0 to be the natural sound of the amp and there fore 0-10 would reach affected sounds accordingly but within the min/max range settings of the algorhythm. Its possible then that the normal Sag sound of some of the amps is drastic enough that at extreme settings of 0.0 or 10.0 the variance from the 'neutral' 5.0 would be unstable in the algorhythm or produce undesirable sounds therefore having 4.0 or 6.0 be the 'neutral' default setting would mean less range to increase/decrease the parameter to stay within the min/max settings of the programming possibilities. I know nothing about programming though, also.....apparently I know nothing about how to spell algorhythm, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codamedia Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 17 hours ago, rosskoss said: I'm just trying to understand why they're set different to the default 5 on some models. Does this mean that to get the 'truer' amp model response that I'd have to dial back to 5 on those models? (even if a greater or lower value might sound / feel better per the Line6 engineers) As I said in my post.... I would be speculating as to why a "few" models deviated from the 5 position as the default settings. Only the person that created the default would be able to explain this... it's even possible they are the ONLY person at Line 6 that knows why. 17 hours ago, themetallikid said: also.....apparently I know nothing about how to spell algorhythm, lol. LOL.... I have to put that word into Google every time I type it... then copy/paste the correct spelling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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