"Natural" chorus effect via delays?

[wlaycook]

Hey guys,

 

First time Helix user here - first off, wow! This tool is absolutely incredible. Maybe the most revolutionary thing for the instrument so far this millennia. Can't believe the naysayers out there who act like they can't get a good tone out of this thing (or any of these types of tools, for that matter). I was actually all set to go with another similar product until my friend who had surgery on his hand let me borrow his LT until he heals up, but now I'm totally sold. Line 6 it is.

 

Anyways, I wanted to see if a particular signal path / tone is possible. I actually discovered it serendipitously when arming my guitar track on my DAW (which unintentionally has a slight latency that produces a really cool "natural" chorus sound that sounds somewhat like John Sykes' tone when using the 2204 preset when heard back through my monitors). Question is, how would I best go about emulating that effect via my Helix "the right way"? For instance, I'm trying to emulate running a master/slave setup with a slight delay between the two to produce that massive sound. I guess more specifically, is there a way to set the time of a delay pedal very short and send the "wet" signal to another amp/cab? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks,

Wade

[datacommando]

23 hours ago, wlaycook said:

how would I best go about emulating that effect via my Helix "the right way"?

Hi,

 

Well the first rule of Helix club, is there are no rules.
 

Actually, what I mean is - there is no right or wrong way to creating a preset in Helix world, as opposed to the real world, where you might fry something, or electrocute yourself.

 

That sound you mention happening in your DAW would probably be best created using a dual pitch shift block. Very small amounts of shift should do the job. Try shifting each side, anywhere from 2 to 12 cents, one side +, the other -, for example right -8 cents and left +7 cents the adjust the time by just a few milliseconds (10 to 12  to start, but keep it short) on each to suit. You really just need to play around with it until you find what is good for you.

IIRC, There was a short thread on here that discusses creating a “natural chorus” effect using dual pitch.

In fact here it is.

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[codamedia]

Using a dual cab with different mics and positions is very natural sounding... 

"Double Take" would be another approach. 

 

 

[wlaycook]

These are perfect suggestions. Thanks guys. I tried the Dual Pitch effect, and it got me where I wanted. Interested in trying this "Double Take" effect though.

[somebodyelse]

You're basically after emulating latency...

If you're on Reaper, take the two 'ms' numbers at the top right of the window and add em together. That's the starting point for your delay time. Otherwise, start around 20ms and adjust to taste, somewhere between 20-40ms will probably work.

Single repeat and a mix level approaching 100%/0dB - again adjust to taste.

 

Alternatively, method I've been using since the 80s is a +30 cents pitch shift at a 30% mix level.

[hideout]

This thread reminds me of the Ideascale request I posted.  I think that an LFO that could be assigned to control and vary the delay time would be a more natural sounding chorus than what is currently available.

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/An-LFO-and-an-ADSR/811573-23508

[somebodyelse]

9 hours ago, hideout said:

This thread reminds me of the Ideascale request I posted.  I think that an LFO that could be assigned to control and vary the delay time would be a more natural sounding chorus than what is currently available.

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/An-LFO-and-an-ADSR/811573-23508

They already do it.

It's called a 'phaser'.

THE most natural way to create chorus is to record the part a second time. In the extremely unlikely event you do it exactly the same as the first time, make a slight EQ change, a slight pitch change and add a slight delay... which is what a chorus pedal does.

If you're using a chorus pedal and it doesn't sound "natural", try turning the knobs down. 

 

[hideout]

On 2/25/2021 at 10:32 PM, somebodyelse said:

They already do it.

It's called a 'phaser'.

THE most natural way to create chorus is to record the part a second time. In the extremely unlikely event you do it exactly the same as the first time, make a slight EQ change, a slight pitch change and add a slight delay... which is what a chorus pedal does.

If you're using a chorus pedal and it doesn't sound "natural", try turning the knobs down. 

 

Nope.  Compare what you suggest with manually moving the delay time knob on a delay pedal and that's the sound I'm after. Obviously not as severe in time delay change but it would be achievable via an LFO. Also, what I'm talking about is to do it in real time, live, not via recording. The Echo Quest pedal has this feature and it would be great to have it be incorporated into the Helix.

[somebodyelse]

On 3/5/2021 at 5:52 PM, hideout said:

Nope.  Compare what you suggest with manually moving the delay time knob on a delay pedal and that's the sound I'm after. Obviously not as severe in time delay change but it would be achievable via an LFO. Also, what I'm talking about is to do it in real time, live, not via recording. The Echo Quest pedal has this feature and it would be great to have it be incorporated into the Helix.

Try an old tape echo unit, they all do that, and not by design.

My old early 90s rack fx can do it,,, that's progress for ya.

[hideout]

On 3/7/2021 at 1:49 AM, somebodyelse said:

Try an old tape echo unit, they all do that, and not by design.

My old early 90s rack fx can do it,,, that's progress for ya.

You're missing the point. I do not want to have to pack around yet another piece of gear.  Especially when it's just for one specific sound.

[qwerty42]

If all you want is a small phase offset, which is what you're hearing from the DAW monitoring, you can do this quite easily with the stereo Dual Delay or even the Simple Delay blocks. Set the feedback to 0, the mix to 100%, and dial in however much delay you want on the channel you want. You can either use these as stereo blocks, or split your path and apply the delay to only one of those paths (e.g. to offset a dual amp or dual cab setup). Also pay attention to how you have your channels panned to adjust the stereo field width (there is actually a stereo width volume block that lets you tweak this, too). I think it's fairly self explanatory once you start playing with these things, but if you want I can make some example patches.

 

A word of caution here: if you do this, it's best to dial in the offset with different amps/cabs/effects on the L/R channels. If you simply add the phase offset but the signal is otherwise identical, you can get phase cancellation issues on mono playback or even stereo speakers. I always check how my stereo patches sound by collapsing them to mono with a mono gain block at the end, which you can bypass to go back to stereo. It should sound good in mono too... If it doesn't, adjustments are needed somewhere.

[somebodyelse]

14 hours ago, hideout said:

You're missing the point. I do not want to have to pack around yet another piece of gear.  Especially when it's just for one specific sound.

Careful what you wish for. When you start using LFOs to control parameter in other effects, DSP usage goes through the roof.

[hideout]

On 3/8/2021 at 11:34 PM, somebodyelse said:

Careful what you wish for. When you start using LFOs to control parameter in other effects, DSP usage goes through the roof.

If a simple LFO causes DSP usage to "go through the roof" there is something very very wrong indeed.

[wlaycook]

On 3/8/2021 at 7:53 PM, qwerty42 said:

If all you want is a small phase offset, which is what you're hearing from the DAW monitoring, you can do this quite easily with the stereo Dual Delay or even the Simple Delay blocks. Set the feedback to 0, the mix to 100%, and dial in however much delay you want on the channel you want. You can either use these as stereo blocks, or split your path and apply the delay to only one of those paths (e.g. to offset a dual amp or dual cab setup). Also pay attention to how you have your channels panned to adjust the stereo field width (there is actually a stereo width volume block that lets you tweak this, too). I think it's fairly self explanatory once you start playing with these things, but if you want I can make some example patches.

 

A word of caution here: if you do this, it's best to dial in the offset with different amps/cabs/effects on the L/R channels. If you simply add the phase offset but the signal is otherwise identical, you can get phase cancellation issues on mono playback or even stereo speakers. I always check how my stereo patches sound by collapsing them to mono with a mono gain block at the end, which you can bypass to go back to stereo. It should sound good in mono too... If it doesn't, adjustments are needed somewhere.

 

Thanks so much for this helpful info. Should I be worried about phase cancellation issues if I just use the pitch shift block as described above? Regardless, some example patches of what you are describing would certainly be really, really appreciated...I'm trying to envision how that would look, so that would be helpful. Thanks a ton.

[PierM]

On 3/10/2021 at 11:13 PM, hideout said:

If a simple LFO causes DSP usage to "go through the roof" there is something very very wrong indeed.

 

Just took a Zoia (HolY MoTheR Of GoD what a blast!!!!), and LFO does take 0.3% of DSP powa. I'd really love to see LFOs, ADSR, Random and other controllers, available in the Helix. Would bring the device into another level.

[hideout]

19 minutes ago, PierM said:

 

Just took a Zoia (HolY MoTheR Of GoD what a blast!!!!), and LFO does take 0.3% of DSP powa. I'd really love to see LFOs, ADSR, Random and other controllers, available in the Helix. Would bring the device into another level.

You mean like this?  https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/An-LFO-and-an-ADSR/811573-23508 

And this?  https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Random-Rate-and-Depth-option/840441-23508

[PierM]

40 minutes ago, hideout said:

You mean like this?  https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/An-LFO-and-an-ADSR/811573-23508 

And this?  https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Random-Rate-and-Depth-option/840441-23508

 

Voted*2

[hideout]

37 minutes ago, PierM said:

 

Voted*2

Thank you!!