Capacitive touch not working (Rack Controller Footswitch)

[MrNoisy]

Hi - this is my first post (previous attempt deleted as i posted in the wrong forum - still learning my way around.)

I just bought a 2016 Helix Rack and Foot controller (2nd hand - looks like new) - the capacitive touch is not working well on the footswitches (none of the 12). [It is on my desk so I am touching with fingers only - have shoes off in case that is supposed to help. I have timber flooring - not sure if that's an issue as wood is an insulator?]

 

In Global Settings>Footswitches>StompSelect i have tested all 4 options {Off, Touch, Press, Touch +Press} - there is no change at all in any selected state - in all selected states only press works, but touch does not seem to work much at all - basically it doesn't work at all usually - there was 1 instance as i was trying random modes it was partially working - in one of modes (not sure which mode as i just bought it and still not familiar) - but even in that instance it was not a useful response - had to leave finger on the switch for about 1.5 whole seconds - not a nice quick touch response - and it was a bit intermittent - sometimes didn't seem to respond at all. Is there a setting to adjust sensitivity - perhaps that would help? 

 

I updated Helix drivers and Firmware from 2.92 to 3.11, and performed a complete factory reset (booting with encoders 5 and 6 pressed) - but still have the same condition.

Is the capacitive touch ever known to fail? Are there sensitivity and response time settings?

 

Thanks.

[silverhead]

Have you tried touching the side, rather than just the top, of the switches?

[MrNoisy]

No i hadn't heard about that before - i will try that. Thank you for the tip Silverhead.

 

[silverhead]

It’s kind of a long shot... no guarantee. More of a potential workaround. I’ve noticed over the years that the side touch seems more responsive than the top. But the top touch should still work.

[lou-kash]

1 hour ago, MrNoisy said:

Is the capacitive touch ever known to fail?

 

Yes.

I bought a new HX Stomp last year, and FS1 eventually turned out to be "immune" to capacitive touch. Line6 support acknowledged this as a hardware failure, so I had the switch replaced on warranty.

[phil_m]

I’m not sure if it could make a difference or not, but have you tried a different Cat5 cable between the Control and the Rack?

[MrNoisy]

10 hours ago, phil_m said:

I’m not sure if it could make a difference or not, but have you tried a different Cat5 cable between the Control and the Rack?

Worth a go - you might be on to something - thanks for the tip - i will try a different one.

[MrNoisy]

10 hours ago, lou-kash said:

 

Yes.

I bought a new HX Stomp last year, and FS1 eventually turned out to be "immune" to capacitive touch. Line6 support acknowledged this as a hardware failure, so I had the switch replaced on warranty.

Ok that's probably it - this being an early model (2016). I will just have to make do without it - not worth $500 for a new one just for capacitive touch. Thanks for the information Lou-kash - that is useful to know.

[MrNoisy]

10 hours ago, silverhead said:

It’s kind of a long shot... no guarantee. More of a potential workaround. I’ve noticed over the years that the side touch seems more responsive than the top. But the top touch should still work.

Hmmm, unfortunately side touch not effective - thanks anyway Silverhead.

[silverhead]

Might be worth opening a support ticket to see if there’s any other fix, or if any warranty might apply.

[MrNoisy]

4 hours ago, silverhead said:

Might be worth opening a support ticket to see if there’s any other fix, or if any warranty might apply.

2016 unit so i assume warranty long gone - will be up for repair or new one - neither worth the cost. 

 

[MrNoisy]

I just noticed the foot controller has DC power in port - but currently running just on phantom power with the ether con cable - could DC power be needed for capacitive touch?

[HonestOpinion]

19 minutes ago, MrNoisy said:

I just noticed the foot controller has DC power in port - but currently running just on phantom power with the ether con cable - could DC power be needed for capacitive touch?

 

The Rack Control does not require the DC power for capacitive touch. There is an interesting blurb in the manual though which points potentially to phil_m's advice to try a different Ethernet/Ethercon cable, and one that is not too long according to the manual. Btw, the manual recommends a Cat-5 or Ethercon cable. 

 

It might be worth testing the touch feature without any other cables plugged in other than power and Ethernet to make sure there are no grounding or short issues with a cable.

 

From page 10 of the Rev.D manual:

DC IN Reserved for potential future use; for very long cable lengths, use a Line 6 DC-3G adapter (purchased separately)

[MrNoisy]

40 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

The Rack Control does not require the DC power for capacitive touch. There is an interesting blurb in the manual though which points potentially to phil_m's advice to try a different Ethernet/Ethercon cable, and one that is not too long according to the manual. Btw, the manual recommends a Cat-5 or Ethercon cable. 

 

It might be worth testing the touch feature without any other cables plugged in other than power and Ethernet to make sure there are no grounding or short issues with a cable.

 

From page 10 of the Rev.D manual:

DC IN Reserved for potential future use; for very long cable lengths, use a Line 6 DC-3G adapter (purchased separately)

Thanks i will read the link next - but can say that already is running just on phantom power through the supplied (original) Ethercon cable into the Foot Controller - the DC power-in and USB-in both remain unconnected. I tested another Ethercon (non original cable) - no change - just as with the original Ethercon cable  the Controller does work but still without capacitive touch.

[MrNoisy]

I wonder if another Factory Reset and/or Firmware rollback and re-update might help?

[HonestOpinion]

44 minutes ago, MrNoisy said:

I wonder if another Factory Reset and/or Firmware rollback and re-update might help?

 

Definitely something I would try!! Especially if as you say it is not just affecting one or two switches but all of them. The 1.5 second delay you described would also lead me to repeating the factory reset and firmware update. I would not bother with a rollback.

 

Btw, I notice you said "I updated Helix drivers and Firmware from 2.92 to 3.11" but didn't mention the HX Edit version. Just to double-check the firmware version I would check the HX Edit menu under 'Help' --> 'About HX Edit'. It should have HX Edit at 3.10 and the firmware version at 3.11.

 

Did you try troubleshooting with all cables unplugged?

[MrNoisy]

1 hour ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

Definitely something I would try!! Especially if as you say it is not just affecting one or two switches but all of them. The 1.5 second delay you described would also lead me to repeating the factory reset and firmware update. I would not bother with a rollback.

 

Btw, I notice you said "I updated Helix drivers and Firmware from 2.92 to 3.11" but didn't mention the HX Edit version. Just to double-check the firmware version I would check the HX Edit menu under 'Help' --> 'About HX Edit'. It should have HX Edit at 3.10 and the firmware version at 3.11.

 

Did you try troubleshooting with all cables unplugged?

Already the latest HX Edit as i just registered 5 days ago and then downloaded HX Edit for the first time (after i updated the Firmware to 3.11)
As for unplugging cables the only cable inserted in the foot controller is the Ethercon cable - the Rack is connected to laptop with USB cable and connected to amps by 1/4 inch cables.

[MrNoisy]

i just did a Factory Reset (holding encoders 5 and 6). No change.
Then did another power on with footswitches 5 and 12, then again with 6 and 12, held down as per attached chart (which is for Floor and LT but cant find one for Rack).
No effect. 

 

[MrNoisy]

Foot controller wouldn't need it's own firmware update would it?

[MrNoisy]

Do i have to register the foot control separately to update firmware for that?

[silverhead]

The Helix Control device receives its firmware updates as part of the Helix Rack firmware update process. If your Helix Control is connected to the Helix Rack at the time, and if the firmware version being installed contains an update for Helix Control, you will be prompted to update it at the end of the Helix Rack update process. 
 

You should not need to separately register the Helix Control but it’s still a good idea to do so.

[MrNoisy]

i used updater to reinstall firmware 3.11 - i grabbed a couple of screenshots on the way - the 2nd one says;
"the inspector will ask if you want to update its [ie. foot controllers] firmware - press knob 6."

But it never asked and was no opportunity to press 6 - just finished updating and rebooted everything.

 

Capacitive touch still not happening.

[silverhead]

It seems the ‘inspector’ is not recognizing that your Helix Control is connected. That points to a problem with your cable, which was suggested by phil_m earlier in this thread. You said you would test that. Did you?

[silverhead]

If it’s not the cable, do a visual inspection of the RJ-45 ports on both the Helix Rack and the Helix Control. You might notice a bent pin in either one of those ports. Try gently straightening the pin using a tool of some sort.

[MrNoisy]

13 minutes ago, silverhead said:

It seems the ‘inspector’ is not recognizing that your Helix Control is connected. That points to a problem with your cable, which was suggested by phil_m earlier in this thread. You said you would test that. Did you?

Yes i tested another Ethercon cable (a generic one eg from computer to modem). Perhaps i should try a 3rd - its possible to have 2 with problems. Does anyone know if the included one supplied by Line 6 in the box is different from generic Ethercon cables in any way?

[MrNoisy]

Does line 6 supply a different type of Ethercon controller - i think i've seen a pic of a big thick connector but mine is just a regular looking Ethercon cable

[silverhead]

Nothing special about the cable. Any Ethercon cable should do. The special one you have seen may be a VDI cable used for a Variax guitar connection. It has shielded ends for protection.

[MrNoisy]

7 minutes ago, silverhead said:

Nothing special about the cable. Any Ethercon cable should do. The special one you have seen may be a VDI cable used for a Variax guitar connection. It has shielded ends for protection.

Ah ok thanks. Ok i'll try a 3rd regular Ethercon cable - if that doesnt do it i really dont know where to turn. I'm wondering again if my wooden floor is preventing grounding - i'll have to tie a long wire to my wrist and run it outside to the actual ground to test that. This is getting a bit ridiculous.

Google search shows no results for this problem - which is strange - i doubt i could be the only one.

Have opened a support ticket on this issue but so far no response from L6.

 

[MrNoisy]

I saw a message at one point "We strongly recommend updating with HX Edit - only use Updater if necessary".

1stly, why?

2ndly, how - HX Edit just says "no update necessary" (unless i'm doing it wrong - see attached pic).

[MrNoisy]

Hmm - interesting thread here - guy says he tried up to 4 regular ethercon cables and nothing worked - only the original worked - but he hates it as its 25 feet long. 

 

[silverhead]

Just an observation..... your original issue was touch capacitance, about which you have just asked for any update in another thread. That may in fact be a symptom rather than the problem.

 

Your main problem is that your Helix Control firmware is not updating as it should in conjunction with Helix Rack firmware updates. That means the Control and Rack firmware installations are incompatible. Loss of Touch Capacitance may be just one symptom of this problem; there may be others. Until you can get your Helix Control firmware to update properly I think it’s futile to pursue any other individual symptomatic problems.

 

Have you visually inspected the RJ-45 ports as suggested earlier?
 

 

[MrNoisy]

Maybe a end-shielded one might help?

https://www.amazon.com/NEUTRIK-NE8MC-B-Ethernet-Contact-etherCON/dp/B074PWH51X/ref=sr_1_25?dchild=1&keywords=ethercon+cable&qid=1622464696&sr=8-25

[MrNoisy]

2 minutes ago, silverhead said:

Just an observation..... your original issue was touch capacitance, about which you have just asked for any update in another thread. That may in fact be a symptom rather than the problem.

 

Your main problem is that your Helix Control is not updating as it should in conjunction Helix Rack firmware updates. That means the Control and Rack firmware installations are incompatible. Loss of Touch Capacitance may be just one symptom of this problem; there may be others. Until you can get your Helix Control firmware to update properly I think it’s futile to pursue any other individual symptomatic problems.
 

 

Good point.

Does anyone know if there is any harm rolling back Firmware version to test?

[MrNoisy]

although it did say version 3.11.0 on the foot controller too - hard to read in this pic i took but thats what it says 

[MrNoisy]

Should capacitive touch work at all times (eg. upon start up) or only in certain modes (eg. footswitch assignment)?

[silverhead]

Ok - that’s a good sign meaning your firmware versions are compatible. The reason you weren’t prompted to update the Control firmware is that it was already up to date.

 

So it may be just the touch capacitance issue. Do the RJ-45 port pins look OK on each device?

[MrNoisy]

Yes both ends nice and tidy - here is the rack end 

[silverhead]

Well, sir..... I’m out of ideas. I’ll return if I think of anything else. Meantime, good luck.

 

Since it’s happening on all footswitches I suspect a hardware fault in some chip where capacitance communications are centralized.

[phil_m]

13 minutes ago, MrNoisy said:

Should capacitive touch work at all times (eg. upon start up) or only in certain modes (eg. footswitch assignment)?

It works mostly in Stomp Mode, but there are also capacitive touch features available in Snapshot Mode.

[phil_m]

1 minute ago, MrNoisy said:

Thanks - already reset Rack with encoders 5 and 6 on boot up - about 4 times (before and after Firmware update with Updater)

I realized I missed that part where you mentioned that and deleted my reply in between the time you replied again.